Live data from Hacker News

On not choosing WordPress for the W3C redesign project

w3c.studio24.net

161–170 of 208 posts

Re: On not choosing WordPress for the W3C redesign project

#161

I'm technical director of an agency that builds websites solely in WordPress, and I can say with feeling that Gutenberg has (so far) been a disaster not just in terms of accessibility but in terms of clarity of the development process. It's been a moving target since day one, with us constantly scrambling to keep up with large changes in each release. We held off for a while, and have only built three sites with it,…

I'm obviously in my own bubble, but I don't understand people complaining about WordPress. WordPress is by far the worst CMS you could possibly use, every other single CMS is better in every capacity. Let's go through why - Uses PHP 5 spaghetti code with a handful of garbage event listeners and output buffering - Has no integration with composer at all - Doesn't have any form of content types without plugins - Has no…

"Why do people continue to try and shove weirdly hacked on garbage plugins on top of basically a glorified blogging platform is beyond me."

I've been critical about Gutenberg, but I'll respond to this by sticking up for WordPress a bit here.

Others have answered the technical questions, but on your point above, that's not what agencies like mine do. We write custom theme code from scratch (although we do have a base framework that we built as a starting point) for clients, and use WordPress as a base system. It deals very well with those kinds of things as long as you know what you're doing. We spend a lot of time with clients up front to understand their use case, and build something robust but user-friendly. The first site we built, for a cross-UK social enterprise with over 200 services, is still going strong. Just because some people (that is, a lot of people) think you can chuck some free hacky plugins at WordPress and get a website doesn't mean that's all it is. It's evolved to a point (well, had evolved to a point) where it was a great base CMS on top of which you could build quite complex websites.

There's a decent ecosystem of paid plugins, like Gravity Forms and SearchWP. If you know your stuff there are also some great open source ones, like CMB2.

Some other reasons why agencies in particular stick with WordPress:

1. People know it, are familiar with its conventions, and actively request it. It allows organisations who are growing to jump from their little Wordpress site to something more complex without having to relearn a CMS. If you're an organisation that's familiar with a CMS there's a significant time cost involved in your staff learning how to use a new one. That's not a good reason on its own for not picking a different CMS, but it's a barrier when the CMSes you're comparing a much of a muchness.

2. Because it's so ubiquitous, if you want to change agency, that's relatively easy, reduing organisational risk. (Choosing an agency that care about quality, however, is a different matter). If you use something that's not common, you risk having to rebuild a site from scratch because no-one else can take it over.

3. There are excellent WordPress hosting companies out there that take away the legwork of doing things like full page caching, CDNs, git, LetEncrypt etc. etc. We use one that for ~$500 a month offers exactly what one of the hosting companies listed on the CraftCMS site does, but we can have 35 separate sites, whereas the same money would get you just two on the Craft CMS host.

Honestly, I think you can do pretty much anything you want in WordPress and Drupal, and possibly CraftCMS too, although I haven't gone deep into Craft yet. What makes a huge difference is getting an agency that knows their stuff and actually cares about both build quality and high-quality hosting.

Re: On not choosing WordPress for the W3C redesign project

#162
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm obviously in my own bubble, but I don't understand people complaining about WordPress. WordPress is by far the worst CMS you could possibly use, every other single CMS is better in every capacity. Let's go through why - Uses PHP 5 spaghetti code with a handful of garbage event listeners and output buffering - Has no integration with composer at all - Doesn't have any form of content types without plugins - Has no…

WordPress is more about the ecoystem than the CMS itself. If you just install WordPress without any plugins or themes, it's pretty useless. WordPress is so popular because you will find a plugin or theme to fit almost any need. The majority of the users are not developers that care about composer, WP source code or out-of-the-box potential. They are users who know that once they install this platform they can create…

Wix, Weebly, Squarespace and Webflow all do this better than WordPress now.

Re: On not choosing WordPress for the W3C redesign project

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Composer support is absolutely fine and there are well maintained ways of keeping plugins and themes under Composer and have been for many years. You need to use a third party service or setup. > Yes, but adding further content types at the level of code or these plugins is easy, trivially so. Compared to what? Drupal? CraftCMS? Joomla? Where you go to a UI and do it all, versus installing a plugin with it's own qu…

Fair enough. Probably at "agree to disagree" here. I'll agree that its easier to do custom post types on other CMS. But sometimes at the cost of real overheads in terms of complexity for users to swallow to get there. Caching is built into the core, which is what all caching plugins leverage, the interface to it is hidden. PHP is a theming engine. I've never got why people escape into Blade, Twig or so on. PHP was de…

Mate, Wordpress does not even have a way to manage your images without using a plugin. People using Wordpress to run newspapers and magazine sites have to use a hacked together solution involving either more plugins or writing custom code. As someone who's had to run a magazine site with Wordpress, I can painfully recall all the issues I've faced and cursed the dev team.

When you have a few hundred images (and that's just for a small site, let alone newspapers), do you really think having just a dropdown with media type and month for a filter (out of the box) suffices? Asset management is a core feature for any large-scale media outlet CMS.

Re: On not choosing WordPress for the W3C redesign project

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Composer support is absolutely fine and there are well maintained ways of keeping plugins and themes under Composer and have been for many years. You need to use a third party service or setup. > Yes, but adding further content types at the level of code or these plugins is easy, trivially so. Compared to what? Drupal? CraftCMS? Joomla? Where you go to a UI and do it all, versus installing a plugin with it's own qu…

Fair enough. Probably at "agree to disagree" here. I'll agree that its easier to do custom post types on other CMS. But sometimes at the cost of real overheads in terms of complexity for users to swallow to get there. Caching is built into the core, which is what all caching plugins leverage, the interface to it is hidden. PHP is a theming engine. I've never got why people escape into Blade, Twig or so on. PHP was de…

> PHP was designed to have loops, logic, to take variables and so on and interpolate them within HTML. [...] one of the unique capabilities the language has

Totally agree, but unfortunately PHP's integration within a markup processor is quick and dirty, without consideration for context-dependent escaping and quoting etc. hence continues to give rise to a large number of HTML injection attacks.

Re: On not choosing WordPress for the W3C redesign project

#165
post #69

Glad they realized the issues of Wordpress but a shame they went with proprietary nonsense with a faux license. A php based platform has a lot of negatives for scalability. Using a cms to generate static content is much more simple, scalable and cheaper. Keep it simple.

PHP scales fine especially serving mostly static content. Not sure why that's even being used as an argument against choosing WordPress. There are valid concerns, this isn't one of them.

Well, you're going to need apache or nginx, then you're going to need a php cgi or fpm. You still need somewhere to store your data so now you get a database layer that has to scale too. Don't forget your op cache. Oh and you probably need some kind of shared filesystem too, so there's that.

If any of those pieces break, get overloaded or have a security bug, your website is down. When your website isn't getting traffic, you still get to pay for those things, maintain them and perform regular updates.

With a static site you have files that get served by whatever. As long as you are serving files you are up. You should update your nginx or whatever on occasion. Scalability is stupidly horizontal.

Re: On not choosing WordPress for the W3C redesign project

#166
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WordPress is more about the ecoystem than the CMS itself. If you just install WordPress without any plugins or themes, it's pretty useless. WordPress is so popular because you will find a plugin or theme to fit almost any need. The majority of the users are not developers that care about composer, WP source code or out-of-the-box potential. They are users who know that once they install this platform they can create…

Wix, Weebly, Squarespace and Webflow all do this better than WordPress now.

Are those alternatives free or self-hosted?

Re: On not choosing WordPress for the W3C redesign project

#167
post #158

When working with WordPress, can anyone recommend a trustworthy place to go for plugin recommendations? The problems I find with WordPress are: - WordPress core is missing a ton of stuff you'd expect to be there so you have to turn to plugins. - It's hard to assess the quality of plugins. They conflict with each other, kill page speed, they break as WordPress is upgraded, and there's tons of bad advice you have to na…

I think one of the largest and best place to find plugins is still CodeCanyon[0]. Because it has such a big audience and established market the good plugins are usually quickly separated from the bad ones. [0]: https://codecanyon.net/category/wordpress

Even the high rated plugins there are pretty terrible and some are downright security nightmares. Just be careful.

Also have run into a ton of plugins that don't play nice with dockerized deploys (they want write access and don't use the native wordpress functions).

Re: On not choosing WordPress for the W3C redesign project

#168
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the largest and best place to find plugins is still CodeCanyon[0]. Because it has such a big audience and established market the good plugins are usually quickly separated from the bad ones. [0]: https://codecanyon.net/category/wordpress

Even the high rated plugins there are pretty terrible and some are downright security nightmares. Just be careful. Also have run into a ton of plugins that don't play nice with dockerized deploys (they want write access and don't use the native wordpress functions).

I agree, it's still a minefield and for a really big business where the site being down a few days is a disaster it's not the way to go. I still think that for the average user, WordPress + themes + plugins is the easiest (not best, but easiest) and cheapest way to go.

Re: On not choosing WordPress for the W3C redesign project

#169
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wix, Weebly, Squarespace and Webflow all do this better than WordPress now.

Are those alternatives free or self-hosted?

Nope. But anyone that needs one probably isn't a position to self-host and is going to require the services of a developer negating the costs of the services anyway.

They also get free suppport. You don't get that with WordPress.

Re: On not choosing WordPress for the W3C redesign project

#170
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gutenberg shipped way too soon. It has been a textbook case of how not to launch a product. Solid idea...horrendous execution. Mullenweg owes the WP community a massive apology. He especially owes the #a11y Community an apology. Hint: In either case don't hold your breath. But more importantly, it should not be in core. Full stop. Once WP became REST-driven the push should have been to lighten core. That is to decoup…

Meanwhile, the core lacks: multilingual, CDN support, caching. Essentials.

CDN support out of the box isn't essential, most sites will never achieve the kind of traffic that merits a CDN. However, to add to your list: database migrations, task queues, middleware, form validation, templating, dependency management, unified plugin framework, etc. No lack of callback soup though.
Post reply on HN