People expect technology to suck because it sucks • Hacker News Board

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#161

Post by philipkglass » Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 3:58 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #119

ashtonkem wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, as you’ve alluded to, the scope of what software does for us on a daily basis has expanded by several orders of magnitude. Not only have a number of devices that used to be purely electro-mechanical been reworked to use microcontrollers (cars, everything in the kitchen), but the scope of activities that have migrated onto the web or our phones is truly massive. 30 years ago, software bugs might interfere with yo…

> Not only have a number of devices that used to be purely electro-mechanical been reworked to use microcontrollers (cars, everything in the kitchen), Yup, and in most cases this not only did not improve them, but made them less useful and more fragile . Let's be honest: the software is there only because it can save on manufacturing costs, and sometimes can be used for extra marketing benefit. No attention is being…

I have to disagree in the case of car engines. When I was a kid my dad and uncles spent hours each month fixing minor problems with their purely electro-mechanical cars. I don't miss carburetors or mechanical ignition timing one bit. Electronically controlled engine functions are much better both in terms of efficiency and consistency.

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#162

Post by LolWolf » Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 4:00 PM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #148

julianlam wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lose all the data you typed into a web form if you accidentally backspace while not in a text field, because it navigates off the page Nowadays, I would consider this a problem with the browser. How often does one navigate backwards with the backspace key? Recently, I had some doubts over whether or not I should clobber the native browser behaviour for "ctrl-s", but then I realized that nobody anywhere EVER saves a…

I for one fully expect the backspace button to work if I do not currently have a text field focused. once you learn keybindings for an application, there's usually no way to perform that function as quickly/efficiently with a mouse. please do not break the conventional ones. ctrl-s is probably fine to break though. even when it does "save" the page, it rarely does so in a useful way.

On Mac the other default for navigating backwards is Cmd-[, if that helps any! (It's also a default in many applications for navigating backwards in whatever sense the app may intend.)

I don't use Windows other than for gaming, so I'm afraid I don't know if there are other shortcuts other than backspace.

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#163

Post by QuadrupleA » Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 4:00 PM UTC

Sounds like this might have been prompted by Jonathan Blow's talk, Preventing the Collapse of Civilization: https://youtu.be/pW-SOdj4Kkk

It's a shame that there isn't usually enough incentive in mainstream software practice (or business reality) to polish and make things work flawlessly - day to day life could be a lot nicer if we dived deeper and thought longer-term.

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#164

Post by throwaway8941 » Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 4:00 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #93

efitz wrote: post #83

I have worked for software companies for over 25 years, mostly on teams building software, and I hate software. I find bugs in every software I use (my freaking microwave oven control panel!). In addition to questionable quality, software is often downright hostile (lose all the data you typed into a web form if you accidentally backspace while not in a text field, because it navigates off the page). Ironically softw…

> accidentally backspace while not in a text field Thankfully that can be disabled, but I find it to be one of the most infuriating 'features' of Firefox. If it weren't something that could be turned off, it would be a deal killer all by itself.

I didn't even know this "feature" was available on Firefox (despite using it since version 2). Turns out, it is only enabled on Windows:

http://kb.mozillazine.org/Browser.backspace_action

Maybe it was copied from IE to keep "closer to the platform"?

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#165

Post by ben_w » Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 4:01 PM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #148

julianlam wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lose all the data you typed into a web form if you accidentally backspace while not in a text field, because it navigates off the page Nowadays, I would consider this a problem with the browser. How often does one navigate backwards with the backspace key? Recently, I had some doubts over whether or not I should clobber the native browser behaviour for "ctrl-s", but then I realized that nobody anywhere EVER saves a…

I for one fully expect the backspace button to work if I do not currently have a text field focused. once you learn keybindings for an application, there's usually no way to perform that function as quickly/efficiently with a mouse. please do not break the conventional ones. ctrl-s is probably fine to break though. even when it does "save" the page, it rarely does so in a useful way.

I’ve just tested on Chrome: backspace on its own does nothing, going to the previous page is bound to cmd-LeftArrow.

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#166

Post by suprfsat » Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 4:01 PM UTC

julianlam wrote: post #139

efitz wrote: post #83

I have worked for software companies for over 25 years, mostly on teams building software, and I hate software. I find bugs in every software I use (my freaking microwave oven control panel!). In addition to questionable quality, software is often downright hostile (lose all the data you typed into a web form if you accidentally backspace while not in a text field, because it navigates off the page). Ironically softw…

> lose all the data you typed into a web form if you accidentally backspace while not in a text field, because it navigates off the page Nowadays, I would consider this a problem with the browser. How often does one navigate backwards with the backspace key? Recently, I had some doubts over whether or not I should clobber the native browser behaviour for "ctrl-s", but then I realized that nobody anywhere EVER saves a…

Chrome hasn't supported backspace since 2016

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#167

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 4:02 PM UTC

bobochan wrote: post #47

This is one of the strangest takes that I have ever read. I can remember my dad's turn on the waiting list finally coming up so that it was his turn to bring the HP calculator home from the government lab where he worked for the weekend. It was an absolute marvel. The whole family sat around the kitchen table for hours as he talked about RPN and showed us how the calculator worked. It was magic. Almost 50 years later…

> Almost 50 years later I have an incredibly powerful computer that I carry around in my pocket and I call it "my phone". It can solve all kinds of mathematical equations, display live video, and communicate in real time with the furthest corners of the globe.

And you use it mostly to browse cat pictures :).

Perhaps it takes a technologist to notice, but for every actual technological improvement that happens, the UI glitter gets cycled 20 times. Majority of "change" in computing technologies isn't improving anything, it's only inciting you to throw away your old device and buy a new one.

Technology is amazing. But if you think of Star Trek visions, you can realize that our technology could be 10x more ergonomic and better than it is, and could be solving 10x more problems than it is. That's what I read these complains are about - unrealized potential. But perhaps it's because I'm a techie and a trekkie that I see it this way.

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#168

Post by leetcrew » Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 4:02 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #138

leetcrew wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The worst idea ever in technology is regularly scheduled updates. Innovation has never and will never happen on a schedule. This is simply greed-driven, promotion-driven, pointy-haired-boss-driven development. this is sort of uncharitable. the development/maintenance cycle for software is incompatible with the traditional way of monetizing a product (ie, design it up front, manufacture at scale, and then the buyer…

> buyers of software expect the product to at least mostly work in the first place, but they also expect bugs to continue to be fixed after the sale, Contrast that to traditional physical goods, where buyers expect the product to work as advertised, right out of the box, or their money back . Software in the Internet era has it easy, because it gets to release shitty half-finished versions, and then keep charging mon…

> Because software does not decay on its own (despite the misleading term "bitrot" being popular in tech circles).

in theory yes, in practice no. I work on a product that targets windows and macos. on windows yeah, a version of our software from 2015 probably works as well as it did the day it was released. apple deprecates stuff in their API every year that we have to go back and update. they also break a lot of stuff that isn't formally deprecated and we have to find workarounds for that to. "our software will work forever as long as you never update your OS" is not acceptable to most customers.

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#169

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

julianlam wrote: post #133

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there are things that don’t work, but it’s not nearly comparable. In my life I’ve never had a problem with a refrigerator, had maybe two problems with washer/dryer, my closet Just Works, books Just Work (with an ink smudge maybe every 50-100 reading hours) etc. I can expect each of those things to last decades. Looking at the goods I’ve bought on Amazon recently, digital electronics/software as a category doesn’…

> In my life I’ve never had a problem with a refrigerator, had maybe two problems with washer/dryer I think blaming software for this is a little naive. Take a look at consumer reports for any modern fridge, stovetop/oven, washer/dryer, etc, and you will see complaints about fridge motors dying, touch panels going on the fritz, etc. -- none of which involve anything more than low level firmware. If you want to put a…

> If you want to put a tinfoil hat on, you can consider that it may be planned obsolescence, but to put the blame squarely on software, I would disagree with.

You don't need tin foil hat when facing the truth :).

Also, while things you mentioned aren't software-related, they're modern tech-related. Like, last 20 years. Fridge motors dry out because they're being made cheaper, with not enough lubricant put into them and no option of opening them up and pouring in the grease. Touch panels are going on the fritz because touch panels suck (that's often very much software), and they shouldn't be put on appliances in the first place. But it's cheaper, so they are.

Worth noting that there wasn't some big price reduction happening from solid appliances 20 years ago to crappy ones today. Price remained roughly fixed, but appliances started to suck more and more.

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#170

Post by leetcrew » Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

_revy wrote: post #155

leetcrew wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The worst idea ever in technology is regularly scheduled updates. Innovation has never and will never happen on a schedule. This is simply greed-driven, promotion-driven, pointy-haired-boss-driven development. this is sort of uncharitable. the development/maintenance cycle for software is incompatible with the traditional way of monetizing a product (ie, design it up front, manufacture at scale, and then the buyer…

I suspect this is a reversal of cause and effect. Did consumers demand subscription services? Or did vendors (led by Adobe) decide to change to subscriptions to get uniform cash flow? At agencies I have worked at all creatives I worked with would prefer to spend $200-400 and have a permanent software license. Perhaps this isn't a representative group.

I'm not saying consumers demanded subscriptions. vendors push them because it's a saner way of managing revenue for products that require maintenance post-sale anyway.

that said, I think consumers would prefer subscriptions if they understood how it aligned incentives. one way or another, a product will stop receiving support when the money stops flowing in. with a permanent license, it ends when people stop buying licenses. with subscriptions, it continues as long as enough people keep paying.