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The Programmer Salary Taboo

thurn.ca

161–170 of 331 posts

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#161
post #62

Salaries never stay secrets forever. Hiding them only delays the inevitable. Last year we were having a discussion at lunch. Coworker was building a new house, and when it came to the numbers it was let loose that it was going to cost about $700K. This didn't seem like much, except to a young guy that joined the previous year and had done nothing but kick ass and take names. The new guy was arguably the most talented…

Can someone please shed some light on what would be a good strategy to follow if you were in his position talking to HR, manager, CTO? What's the best way to save yourself once you've realized you're worth nearly double, triple, or quad your current comp pkg?

The easiest way is to just find another offer from another company. You're not "worth" double your current comp if you can't find it somewhere. Then you let them know that you have another offer but would prefer to stay if they can match the other offer.

Keep in mind that this happens all the time and is standard procedure in most American and European companies. As long as you act honestly, your boss will probably not hate your forever or start looking for your replacement. If your employer can't deal with negotiating over salary, you should probably just take that other offer . . .

The other option is to say that you're going to leave to go consulting. This is a harder sell because they'll think you're bluffing. You have to be ready to actually do it.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A minor correction: it's not as bad as 15.3%. The self-employment tax is really just the company share of FICA withholding (6.2%) plus Medicare withholding (1.45%) If you're an employee you pay 6.2%+1.45%=7.65% and your employer pays the same. If someone else (employer) is not paying the 7.65% then you do. However, for 2011 the FICA rate for employees is 4.2% instead of 6.2%, so the self-employment tax remains effect…

As "bad" as 15%? Tax is at least 38% here in Au for that wage (was 60% not so long ago).

Well, it's 15% for FICA (employee + employer), but there's also normal income tax, which starts at 10% and gets up to 35%. And then the state and, depending on where you live, the city have income and/or payroll tax as well (usually in the single digits).

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A minor correction: it's not as bad as 15.3%. The self-employment tax is really just the company share of FICA withholding (6.2%) plus Medicare withholding (1.45%) If you're an employee you pay 6.2%+1.45%=7.65% and your employer pays the same. If someone else (employer) is not paying the 7.65% then you do. However, for 2011 the FICA rate for employees is 4.2% instead of 6.2%, so the self-employment tax remains effect…

As "bad" as 15%? Tax is at least 38% here in Au for that wage (was 60% not so long ago).

That's "only" for social security and medicare. You still pay federal income tax on top of that.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#164

Are there parts of the world where it's customary for salaries to be known?

In Norway all tax returns are public: http://skattelister.no/

In fact I just looked up an old high school classmate and was initially surprised at how much she was making - until I realized 280,000 Kronor is only about 50,000 USD.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#165
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never personally heard of a person getting upset upon discovering someone else's private salary. I have, on several occasions. I've been that upset person once, even. I know lots of people who are dissatisfied because they're obviously far more valuable than a peer at the same level, and lots of people who are resented because of their parasitism at a higher-level job. (This is in the government system, where sa…

If you're far more valuable than a peer but are being paid the same or less, you should be dissatisfied. Value is not only completely subjective, but almost always biased. Most people think they are more valuable than their peers, and most are wrong.

I didn't say "peers" (plural). I said "peer." It's one thing to take your peers as a whole and say you're better than them (and I'd agree that, by definition, if most people make that determination, they're wrong), but a very different thing to take a single peer and believe that you're better. You may still be wrong, but it's easier to semi-objectively evaluate differences between your skills and a single other person's.

Of course everyone is biased to some extent, but the bottom line is that some people will correctly assess as skills difference. If you have 10 people of varying ability (even only slightly varying), all making the same amount, 5 of them will be equal or better than the average of all of them.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But remember that there is non-billable work (accounting, etc.) and a 15.3% self-employment tax. And also remember that there are probably not 50 weeks of 40 hours/week at this company but rather short-term or part-time work. And you are paying for your own benefits. I've found a good (albeit a bit conservative) rule-of-thumb is to convert the hourly wage into the yearly salary. Working as a consultant for $175/hour…

A minor correction: it's not as bad as 15.3%. The self-employment tax is really just the company share of FICA withholding (6.2%) plus Medicare withholding (1.45%) If you're an employee you pay 6.2%+1.45%=7.65% and your employer pays the same. If someone else (employer) is not paying the 7.65% then you do. However, for 2011 the FICA rate for employees is 4.2% instead of 6.2%, so the self-employment tax remains effect…

Another (even more) minor correction: there's no limit on the Medicare tax, currently 1.45%.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#167
post #30

Or you can look at actual data: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151031.htm Average salary for a software engineer is $90k, for California $103k (this excludes "programmers" who just implement fully spec'd code).

> who just implement fully spec'd code

If the spec is really complete then why don't they just compile and run that? Put another way: Is there such a thing anymore as a programmer who just implements fully specced code?

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#168

Reading all the replies on HN reminds me why companies like to outsource. Americans are expensive and have a strong sense of entitlement. This race to make more money for the sake of money just leads to accelerating inflation across the board. As far as I am concerned, salary is just a number and people can live just fine on $50,000 if they we weren't such a consumerist society.

There's a considerable difference between having a sense of entitlement and being rational.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#169
post #62

Salaries never stay secrets forever. Hiding them only delays the inevitable. Last year we were having a discussion at lunch. Coworker was building a new house, and when it came to the numbers it was let loose that it was going to cost about $700K. This didn't seem like much, except to a young guy that joined the previous year and had done nothing but kick ass and take names. The new guy was arguably the most talented…

Sounds like a Google story.

But regardless, some people define 'winning' as getting more out of you than you get out of them. Sometimes those people get into management positions, and when they do their groups seem to develop really wide pay ranges for the same amount of work. If you're a senior manager and one of your managers is trying to get points because "I can convince him to join for half what the last guy cost." then you need to jump on that problem right away.

Managers have the challenge when they pay someone $X but they aren't doing the same level or quality of work of someone making $X - $Y. As a manager you have three choices: 1) Bring the lower paid person up to an equivalent level 2) Fire the guy making "too much" and replace with someone who is more calibrated to your organization. 3) Engage in a potentially unsuccessful campaign to bring the contribution up of the under performer.

Of the three #1 is the "easy" one (giving people raises is always pretty easy), #2 is the "quick" one (especially if you're in a place where turn over is expected) and #3 is perhaps the biggest gamble (both the opportunity cost of not having the guy perform and the possibility he may never get there). It's one of those things that is different about being a manager vs being an individual contributor.

Things are weirder in pre-IPO + post-IPO worlds where people assume that if they are throwing around a bunch of money its because they got it from stock or something. It can be psychologically difficult on someone who has a lot of money due to an IPO but is doing the same "level" of work as someone who joined later and got post IPO stock. Harder to manage and harder to deal with morale issues if they start 'resting and vesting'.

Google was famous for having a 'personal multiplier' which would adjust your bonus and a 'median salary' for your pay grade but they wouldn't tell you either of those numbers (they made it a policy not too) so it was impossible to back check to see whether or not your bonus reflected your work or was just a beauty contest. When the company won't tell you what the median salary is for your pay grade that should be a red flag. But not sharing individual points across the spectrum I can see the argument for that.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$x/hour * 40 hr/wk * 50 wk/yr = 2 n 1000 The general rule is always "times 2, add 3 zeros" to do it in your head.

That would never work. You'd find some garbage in the output, or even worse, get a core dump due to n being undefined. I think you mean 2x * 1000. .... or I've been refactoring my code for too long. But yes, this is generally the rule I use as well, take the hourly rate and double it and add a K (eg $30/hr = $60K) Doesn't include holidays, sick leave or efficiency trade-offs (billable time vs maintenance, research).…

For 75% efficiency I assume you mean 3/4 * 2 * $175 * 1000 = $262,500 / year.

3/4 on it's own is less than %40 efficiency. I.e. Taking half the year off.

You also just stated the same thing slashcom did while meaning to correct him?

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