The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success • Hacker News Board

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#161

Post by leetcrew » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

Funes- wrote: post #156

leetcrew wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hell, ask a few people when the Western Roman Empire ended. Good luck with that. There are folks who will tell you it never did end. If you're that far in denial, how could you ever reason from your current historical position to the long run? AFAIK, the argument over when the western empire fell is not so much about the facts, so much as the meaning of the word "fall". it's inherently arbitrary to point to the "en…

>cultural/ethnic mixing Those two, as far as I know, are the same thing. I know biological "race" has some negative connotations, but I guess you could also say "ecotype" to refer to roughly the same thing, which I reckon was what you were trying to do--correct me if I'm wrong.

I think culture and ethnicity are not exactly the same, but I couldn't tell you specifically what the difference is. I don't mean anything terribly specific here, just looking for a convenient way to express the set of things that are different between one group of people and another, aside from the political borders they happen to live within. as a weird example, if china conquered half of france, we would still consider the people that lived there to be french, not chinese. if a single chinese family moved to france, we would probably consider them to be french after a certain number of generations. but if many chinese families moved to france and integrated with the existing society, we would consider that society to be not entirely french or chinese, but something new.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#162

Post by DanielBMarkham » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #122

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #23

This is a fascinating discussion because it hits directly at a topic that civilization-after-civilization has faced throughout history: are we able to reasonably assess whether we are continuing towards growth and progress or stagnation and extinction? Frankly, the historical record is not encouraging. Usually, when this topic comes up people chime in with easy takeaways like "people have always complained about this…

A lot of this stuff is just ship-of-Theseus for politics; institutions and power structures gradually break down and are replaced piecemeal with other ones, making it difficult to identify a cutoff date. Not only that, what are the boundaries of "our" "civilization" - what's not ours, and what's not civilization?

Trying to stay at a meta level, this discussion is almost intractable _because_ of the issue of definitions. It reminds me of the SCOTUS 1964 case for obscenity, where one justice notes "I'll know it when I see it" [1] You can look at, say, Western Europe after 700AD or so and see that things are not as good as they were 500 years before, but it's quite arguable which (if any) of those things constitutes a "decline" Charlemagne, after all, was crowned (among many other things) "Emperor of the Romans" [2]

In fact, even during its heyday, the Roman Empire defied defied definitions. Were you Latin? Roman? A citizen? These and other terms all meant different things as the civilization progressed. There was almost a determined effort to keep shifting definitions around such that the Roman Empire never died. In fact, IIRC, there's a 60 Minutes segment where they interview some Greek monks living on an island. The flag they're flying? The flag of the Byzantine Empire, of course. (Also, the word "byzantine" is mostly our own invention. They considered themselves thoroughly Roman)

Having said all of that, it's completely obvious to any outside observer that major changes occurred, many of which had a negative impact on the population. So something happened. Until one starts in with definitions of what exactly constitutes a valid OEM part for our Theseusian ship and what doesn't, folks are free to completely ignore the discussion, no matter how bad things get.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#163

Post by voldacar » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 6:25 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #108

voldacar wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Video games are indeed a form of media, but I think it is misleading to say they are art in the same sense as this author intends. Art and mass entertainment are only superficially similar, and most video games are made to entertain. Video games are (generally) consumable goods created to provide an amount of temporary pleasure. Good art is recognized not just by beauty or the skill required to create it, but by its…

I would respectfully submit that you're talking from a standpoint of utter and complete ignorance about your subject. There are a thousand games that have an "ability to engage with some aspect of what it means to be human, in a way that is coherent, mature, and thought-provoking". I've been moved to tears by several (killing the dragon in Minecraft after literally months of effort, This War of Mine). Stupid things l…

No we agree much more than you think. I really like minecraft, some of my greatest teen memories are of running a server with a bunch of my friends that had 40+ mods. I think the world is made better by minecraft's existence, and people have made all kinds of beautiful and artful things in minecraft.

My point was not to say that there are no games that provide powerful, meaningful, beautiful experiences to the humans that play them. Such a claim would be absurd. What I am saying is that the game as a medium probably hasn't matured to the point where it can be compared to the Arts with a capital A, as they are historically understood. Precisely, I mean things like painting, sculpture, music, and literature.

I am not the stupid kind of cultural elitist who would say that there is something inherent about the video game medium that would prevent it from rising to that level, I just think that empirically it hasn't happened yet, though in the long term I am quite hopeful.

And yeah, contemporary "high art" has been in largely poor condition for quite some time. At least if the stuff that makes it into museums is any indication.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#164

Post by voldacar » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 6:26 PM UTC

Alekhine wrote: post #159

voldacar wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Video games are indeed a form of media, but I think it is misleading to say they are art in the same sense as this author intends. Art and mass entertainment are only superficially similar, and most video games are made to entertain. Video games are (generally) consumable goods created to provide an amount of temporary pleasure. Good art is recognized not just by beauty or the skill required to create it, but by its…

You should take a look at Pathologic. If you're looking for high art in games, that's what I'd recommend. Watch Hbomberguy's video on YouTube if you're curious.

Thanks, I will definitely check that out.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#165

Post by N1H1L » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #67

I realise this is a review, not the actual text. But still. This is utter bollocks. It's typical of non-technical "intellectuals" to completely ignore the main areas of modern human progress, simply because they don't understand them. e.g. the whole discussion on Art completely ignores Video Games, which are undoubtedly Art, and also an area of rapid innovation and development. Yet they're usually dismissed out of ha…

Yes absolutely. What qualifies Anish Kapoor's Bean for example as art above the Shadow of the Colossus?

And there was an absolute explosion of written works only starting two centuries ago - due to mass scale printing. And even in books, fantasy is somehow not high literature - which is just gatekeeping at this point.

In physics for example, computational modelling has been exploding. The availability of GPUs and ML based modelling has been rising rapidly too.

Yet another point - when I was a MS student quantum computing was a pie in the sky fantasy - today it's an exploding field. Same for energy storage - the progress we have made there in the last decade is mind boggling.

There is an effect that we humans cannot really accept - it takes time to really judge the quality of a work. And that time is often decades. Human beings are exceptionally poor at long term thinking (we have literally mountains of evidence for this) and yet stubbornly refuse to accept this limitation.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#166

Post by voldacar » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

manifestsilence wrote: post #130

voldacar wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Video games are indeed a form of media, but I think it is misleading to say they are art in the same sense as this author intends. Art and mass entertainment are only superficially similar, and most video games are made to entertain. Video games are (generally) consumable goods created to provide an amount of temporary pleasure. Good art is recognized not just by beauty or the skill required to create it, but by its…

Some video games that explore the human condition and could be said to be Art with the capital A: The Stanley Parable (deconstruction of what it is to play a game. It starts with a third person narration of your character being at work, pushing buttons all day without being quite sure why, and proceeds into multiple endings that deconstruct reality in quite creative ways that sometimes break the fourth wall) Braid (M…

Yeah like I said in another comment, I'm really not trying to deny the validity or value of individual games or anything like that. Portal is brilliant, and I really liked DA:O (though not quite as much as Baldur's Gate or Pillars of Eternity). I just think that the Shakespeare of the video game medium, whatever form that would even take, hasn't been born yet.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#167

Post by N1H1L » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 6:31 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #37

I disagree with criticisms of current art or “pop” art like pop music, popular fiction books, etc. To become broadly popular you must appeal to as many people as possible. This is a balancing act between mediocrity and edginess that pushes just the right amount of boundaries to feel “new” and “fresh” without turning off a lot of people. So by definition the most popular song in the world is going to usually be fairly…

Even with music for example - look at what indie artists are doing. Touareg rock for example, or Altin Gun for Turkish folk psychedelia, Newen Afrobeat who are combining Chilean folk with Afrobeat or Coke Studio in Pakistan will be marvelled at decades from now.

Heck, just go through the KEXP YouTube catalogue to be blown away by what's happening in music.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#168

Post by krapp » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 6:32 PM UTC

voldacar wrote: post #166

manifestsilence wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some video games that explore the human condition and could be said to be Art with the capital A: The Stanley Parable (deconstruction of what it is to play a game. It starts with a third person narration of your character being at work, pushing buttons all day without being quite sure why, and proceeds into multiple endings that deconstruct reality in quite creative ways that sometimes break the fourth wall) Braid (M…

Yeah like I said in another comment, I'm really not trying to deny the validity or value of individual games or anything like that. Portal is brilliant, and I really liked DA:O (though not quite as much as Baldur's Gate or Pillars of Eternity). I just think that the Shakespeare of the video game medium, whatever form that would even take, hasn't been born yet.

> I just think that the Shakespeare of the video game medium, whatever form that would even take, hasn't been born yet.

But Hideo Kojima was born years ago...

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#169

Post by N1H1L » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

serjester wrote: post #43

While I don't necessarily disagree with his thesis, I think the author cherry picks points and creates a narrative where there isn't one. He mentions the last "shared cultural moment" was Buzz Aldrin landing on the moon. Personally after watching it live, I'd argue Space X launching humans into space is one of those "moments". This all comes down to your own interpretation of the events and there's so many other exam…

Why is not the internet a shared cultural moment? Why is the smartphone of today a lesser innovation than the Saturn V? I really don't get the nostalgia in the article

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#170

Post by jhoechtl » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 6:45 PM UTC

api wrote: post #86

caleb-allen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I was especially unconvinced at the arguments for "repetition", for example that today's music is separated from the 90s only by "nuance". What? Sure, from up close it may seem that way, but given 30 years I'm sure we can look back and very clearly see the style developments just as we can for the 70s and the 80s. It sounded to me like a case of "back in my day" but with incoherent arguments.

That's the part I completely agree with. Music is absolutely stuck. There have only been micro-genres, such as the many micro-genres of techno/EDM or hip hop. There has been nothing approaching the birth of hip hop, techno/rave, grunge, "alternative" rock, and so on. Those all came of age in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. For some reason after 2000 music died. My personal explanation is the collapse of the record industry. I…

Another issue is that today discovering new music becomes hard. An algorith will tell you what you like based on your past hearing habits. New music will come to you as a surprise by the one who is paying most to feature it to you. Passive consumption like listening to radio which virtually no one seems to do these days means to be confronted with new things you may dislike but there might be something new which becomes a trend and later a new genre.

Holds equally true for motion picture.