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TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

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Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#161

Post by boomboomsubban »

httpsterio wrote: post #151
_8j50 wrote: post #51

Is this not a freedom of speech issue? The right is guaranteed for foreingners in the US as well. If they can ban tik tok, they can ban signal or briar because those also might send your encrypted data overseas or because their use among "violent" protestors is a risk. How about VPN apps that siphon your personal data to china and russia! Haha Here's the thing, US bigtech complies (in secret) with US intel community…

a company is not a natural citizen and as such, amendments do not extend to those. amendments are the bare minimum guarantee you as a person are given by the country of your residence or citizenship.

The word "citizen" is not present in the Bill of Rights. The Amendments guarantee rights that you already have, countries can't give you rights.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#162

Post by disgu »

arcturus17 wrote: post #142
disgu wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you're on about. Authoritarian states do have laws to justify what they do. Even Saudi Arabia has them. You can get a lawyer, you can get a judge to review your case, you can appeal decisions. They do have separation of power as well. Read up about the countless cases in those countries. Enforcing national security laws are very, very often the reason for the most fucked up judgements. All those cas…

> Authoritarian states do have laws to justify what they do From my original comment, which you replied to: > There are laws in China, but ultimately a corporation is subject to the whims of the Chinese Communist Party. Either you didn't read that part, chose to omit it, or you are being deliberately rude, questioning "what I'm on about". The difference between those authoritarian regimes and a democracy under the Ru…

> You did not address the fundamental point which is that an Executive Order can be challenged in a Court of Law - it will be, in fact.

> Do you think a decision by the CCP, Xi Jinping, Kim Jong-Un or Mohammad Bin Salman would be afforded the same level of guarantees?

Yes, absolutely. It happens all the time. Those rulers use _the laws afforded to them_ to rule. It's completely wrong to suggest that they just do whatever the hell they want. That's just not the case at all. Please look into the topic. Those countries have laws that make it very, very easy for the rulers to justify doing whatever they want.

MBS can put you in jail for live not because he's free to do whatever he wants but because the laws are designed in a way that gives him every reason to justify putting anyone in jail - as I mentioned, usually based on national security grounds.

Those very same national security reasons that authoritarian regimes constantly use are being used by Trump.

So yes, Trump being able to claim something a national security issue without having to provide proof, without giving the accused a chance to take a look at the evidence that supposedly exists against them, without them being able to defend themselves from the accusations, that's exactly what authoritarian regimes do.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#163

Post by abc-xyz »

rjtavares wrote: post #148
sbmthakur wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One difference between TikTok and other companies is that they are backed by an entity which has plans for global dominance and are not exactly aligned with American interests.

Facebook is a company that has plans for (and has achieved) global dominance and is not aligned with European interests. Boeing is a company backed by an entity which has plans for (and has achieved) global dominance and is increasingly not aligned with European interests. I know there's a huge difference between the US Government and the Chinese Government, but that difference is decreasing. And Facebook, well I sim…

It’s no secret that the EU want to achieve technological sovereignty.

It seems like it would be a good thing if you didn’t have these billion-user social networks, operated by foreign entities that are likely to use them to spread propaganda, censorship, election interference, etc.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#164

Post by rjtavares »

abc-xyz wrote: post #163
rjtavares wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook is a company that has plans for (and has achieved) global dominance and is not aligned with European interests. Boeing is a company backed by an entity which has plans for (and has achieved) global dominance and is increasingly not aligned with European interests. I know there's a huge difference between the US Government and the Chinese Government, but that difference is decreasing. And Facebook, well I sim…

It’s no secret that the EU want to achieve technological sovereignty. It seems like it would be a good thing if you didn’t have these billion-user social networks, operated by foreign entities that are likely to use them to spread propaganda, censorship, election interference, etc.

It would be an even better thing if supra-national entities (huge companies) had to deal with multi-national entities. That would level the playing field.

Countries competing for the attention of monopolistic companies will just provoke a tranfer of wealth from the citizens of all countries to those companies (see: tax havens).

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#165

Post by oblio »

zpeti wrote: post #46
oblio wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will be locked out of the US for sure if they are caught forging stuff and there might be personal liability, too. What happened to the presumption of innocence?

Hard to presume they are innocent when a search for Hong Kong during the protests got you a few dance videos from HK...

So the US is banning them because they're complying with Chinese censorship requests?

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#166

Post by buran77 »

sbmthakur wrote: post #136
gampleman wrote: post #121

So if the problem is that TikTok is gathering too much invasive data on US citizens (and supposedly siphoning it to China), and their defence is basically "So what, it's legal and everyone else is doing it too!", then isn't the obvious solution making actual digital privacy legislation that would make such data vacuuming illegal? That would solve the problem and make the American market a fair playing field rather th…

One difference between TikTok and other companies is that they are backed by an entity which has plans for global dominance and are not exactly aligned with American interests.

> they are backed by an entity which has plans for global dominance and are not exactly aligned with American interests

The irony is that each of the entities has plans for global dominance, which is incompatible with the plans and interests the other one has.

The sad part is that it turns out the US is willing to forgo its values if this gives them a leg up on China. Makes any future rhetoric on values and morals seem a bit empty. *

* It has been pointed out that perhaps "empty rhetoric" wasn't the best choice of words. Maybe "rhetoric that no longer has any basis in reality whatsoever" sums it up better.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#167

Post by __bjoernd »

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #32
bawolff wrote: post #6

> The app has also been used to antagonize the president, including when thousands of teens reserved tickets to the president's rally in Tulsa, Okla., with no intention of going, inflating the Trump campaign's expectations for the event and causing embarrassment over the disappointing turnout. Forgot that was organized on tiktok. All makes sense now. If US was really interested in national security i'm pretty sure zo…

Forgetting Trumps' feelings about the Tulsa rally, I truly believe the Tulsa thing was the smoking gun. We know that TikTok did manual moderation of topics sensitive to China, as well as some more non-ethical ones (censuring/pushing results back) of disabled and 'ugly' people. My girlfriend was offered a job moderating for TikTok and their package details with the work described left a bad taste in my mouth to be hon…

> If you can't say with 100% certain NO to these questions, and taking in account the US and China are in some sort of 'cold war', doesn't it make sense that the US goverment cuts the feet of an app that can change election results?

You mean ... shut down Facebook????

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#168

Post by endogui »

buran77 wrote: post #166
sbmthakur wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One difference between TikTok and other companies is that they are backed by an entity which has plans for global dominance and are not exactly aligned with American interests.

> they are backed by an entity which has plans for global dominance and are not exactly aligned with American interests The irony is that each of the entities has plans for global dominance, which is incompatible with the plans and interests the other one has. The sad part is that it turns out the US is willing to forgo its values if this gives them a leg up on China. Makes any future rhetoric on values and morals se…

Rhetoric about US values has been empty since Guantanamo Bay started housing "foreign militants". Europe seems to be the only place in the West where a commitment to human rights is sincere.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#169

Post by wongarsu »

onetimemanytime wrote: post #157
_8j50 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The security and economic well being of the US comes after the citizens' rights are secured. A government that provides security and economic prosperity by sacrificing rights and liberties of citizens does not have the consent of the governed and is operating with illegitimate authority. Your courts and congress will decide if he stepped over the line. But if they fail to do so, you lose a ton of rights. He then gets…

so if Huawei offers everyone in America free Alexa-like speakers, USA should do nothing? Or if they give free routers to major infrastructure companies..?

They could make proper privacy laws. If both Alexa speakers and Huawei speakers have to respect your privacy and both are banned for failing to do so you sidestep a lot of the issues

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#170

Post by endogui »

_8j50 wrote: post #51

Is this not a freedom of speech issue? The right is guaranteed for foreingners in the US as well. If they can ban tik tok, they can ban signal or briar because those also might send your encrypted data overseas or because their use among "violent" protestors is a risk. How about VPN apps that siphon your personal data to china and russia! Haha Here's the thing, US bigtech complies (in secret) with US intel community…

If a publisher violates a tax law, it can be shut down without worrying about free speech issues. Same with a phone company or church in violation of federal laws (although large lawsuits are a given). Tiktok is not being shut down for its own speech, but for being an agent of foreign espionage and foreign contributions to political candidates (essentially). Thus the first ammendment issue is moot.

Signal isn't sponsored by foreign governments, so it is immune to this sort of attack. It looks like Briar has German funding. The encrypted and decentralized nature of both of those apps makes them much lower concerns for espionage and (election) interference, and of course neither provides content directly from foreign governments, so they cannot be called into question for campaign interference.

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