ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard • Hacker News Board

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#161

Post by m0xte » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

nextos wrote: post #92

tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

I love mechanical keyboards. My favorite switch is ALPS. But IMHO, the most ergonomic switches are low-travel ones. They increase my typing speed, reduce latency and make long sessions effortless. Luckily, low-travel versions of many good quality keyboard switches are being produced and developed more often now to cater the gaming market. For a simple, readily available option, I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more th…

Latest Apple magic keyboard is awful. The key tops rock all over the place. Back on my Cherry MX board 1.0 with red switches.

It’s better than the cancerous lump of excrement that is the Magic Mouse 2 though.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#162

Post by StavrosK » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 6:42 PM UTC

indentit wrote: post #14

I like the idea of it, it's different enough from the standard design that it seems well thought out - but it's one of those keyboards/products I would love to be able to try for a while before committing myself to a purchase, to ensure I can get used to it and would enjoy typing on it. It'd be great to see some kinda local computer hardware/keyboard store open up for this purpose, but I guess it'd be too niche reall…

I was in the same boat, the solution to my predicament came in the form of my friend, who is a keyboard geek and has a few tens of them. He lent me one, I liked it and bought it from him. I greatly enjoy it now and would not go back to a non-QMK keyboard (or a non-split one), though I wouldn't have gone for a columnar keyboard if I knew.

I would also have preserved the full layout, to prevent having to needlessly retrain some muscle memory, but being able to do things like remap "Tab+hjkl" to "{}[]" is fantastic.

I should actually finish writing up that post I started writing in December...

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#163

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 6:42 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#164

Post by nine_k » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 6:44 PM UTC

My take:

- It's basically Ergodox EZ for the main part, from the same company.

- The thumb block is more comfortable now, but 2 keys smaller.

- The position of wrist pad is adjustable.

- Backlight, legs, and wrist pads are included in the base set.

- The price of the whole thing is about the same as of Ergodox EZ in a minimal set, without backlight and wrist pads.

Still not barrel-shaped as e.g. Kinesis Advantage; you can put the parts quite far aside, though.

Looks like a buy if you were planning to buy a mechanical ergonomic keyboard.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#165

Post by nonbirithm » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 6:44 PM UTC

tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

I want a more ergonomic keyboard since I may be developing wrist problems, but I don't understand why none of them seem to have function keys. I use the function keys all the time and when I switch to a 40% layout I get seriously annoyed by the lack of them and end up going back to a full layout keyboard because of it. I spent twenty minutes searching for a split keyboard with function keys and found only one thread where someone made a "theoretical" split layout with function keys and discussed it for a long time, and then gave up in the end by going back to a function-keyless keyboard and saying that he simply learned to live without them and even argued that having no function keys is healthier as it reduces finger movement, so there's no real point in having them.

Is this some kind of cultural thing, where nobody in the DIY keyboard space is interested in making such a keyboard, even though there are keyboards marketed as ergonomic with cheap dome switches I don't prefer but still have function keys? Are "split keyboard" and "function keys" mutually exclusive properties? I don't understand.

EDIT: Okay, I did not look hard enough at all.

https://www.zergotech.com/

This looks like the kind of keyboard I would be interested in using.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#166

Post by jtmarmon » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

I've had the EZ for a while now and my only gripe has been how much of a pain it is to travel with. The folding and carrying case made this an instant buy for me.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#167

Post by StavrosK » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

ghufran_syed wrote: post #86

egypturnash wrote: post #84

Hyper is Ctrl+Shift+Alt+Win/Cmd, while Meh is Ctrl+Shift+Alt. No sane application on your machine uses these, which means you get free system-wide shortcuts. Ugh I wish Illustrator would let me use these, it only lets me assign shortcuts to cmd, cmd-shift, cmd-alt, and cmd-alt-shift. I would be so happy if I could add ctrl I to the mix, I have about thirty keypresses left unassigned and they are all kind of terrible…

What OS do you use? Could you use something like Karabiner on OSX, I'm not an expert but I think it allows you to map arbitrary key combinations to other key combinations that the program will accept

But you can already map the keyboard's keys to anything you want, no need to map twice.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#168

Post by cuddlybacon » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 6:50 PM UTC

This is interesting.

I have an ergodox, well two of them, and I think this does improve on the design. I read a user comment somewhere that said that the ergodox seems like the design got solidified when there were still improvements to be made, and for me that has been true.

Let's talk about some changes they made that I really like:

* The left side is the primary. If I ever want half a keyboard, I'll want just the left side. On the ergodox, the right side is the primary side.

* It's thinner. The bulkiness of the ergodox ez makes it look cheap, which it very much is not.

* The tilting of the thumb cluster might make that 3rd key accessible to me. On my ergodox, my thumbs can only operate two of the buttons.

* They tried a new layout on the thumb cluster.

Some other thoughts I have:

* I find it strange that the default layouts for both keyboards split the arrow keys. Some games use the arrows for moving the viewport, and I find split arrow keys unworkable for that.

* The rotating hinge for the thumb cluster is neat, but what about just moving them closer? The keyboardio Model 01 manages to get 5 workable thumb buttons with this. But it did sacrifice the rows beneath zxc and ,./ Maybe that is inevitable.

* The site is responsive, loaded fairly fast (550ms, which is good considering I'm on my work VPN. HN takes 250ms), and is smaller than I expected considering all the images (1.6MB).

* I find it hard to come up with uses for the fancier things the keyboard firmware can do (eg dual purpose modifier keys, space cadet shift, macros etc).

* EDIT: I have been curious if a design where the thumb buttons push inward is workable. That direction seems more suitable to the thumb. Again, I think the issue is being able to fit the buttons without affecting the keys for the fingers.

Still, I'd probably give this a try if I needed a new keyboard.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#169

Post by StavrosK » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

samgranieri wrote: post #81

ahelwer wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kinesis Freestyle Pro is more similar, except for the ortholinear layout.

I switched to an Ergodox EZ from a Kinesis Freestyle 2 bluetooth. It basically took me a month to get used to an ortholinear layout, but it's been working great so far

I had a slightly different experience. I don't like Bluetooth (too much fiddliness, especially when batteries are running low, and I'm always at my desk so I could just use a cable), and I don't like the ortholinear layout, I think it's too much hassle for no benefit at all.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#170

Post by genpfault » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

> I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches.

Same, but for the Natural Keyboard Pro[1].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_ergonomic_keyboards#...