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Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

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Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#161

Post by haploid »

roel_v wrote: post #122
SkyMarshal wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if you could give them access to a custom subdomain of a test site and tell them to build a web app, anything they want, and upload it. Give a suitable time limit, a day to a week, depending on how much you want to see and whether they already are a full-time employee or student. Then screen based on what people came up with. That's a bit more involved than the lighter-weight solution in the same vein - remo…

Right, that's because no sane prospect (or rather, a prospect you'd want to hire) would go along with it. A reasonably competent developer has several options to choose from - it's just not rational to spend 10+ hours on each job opening; you wouldn't be able to coordinate and assess 5 or so offers in a reasonable time (when looking for a new job, people will apply at various places, compare the offers and take the b…

We did this for our most recent front-end hire, actually.

We gave him a two-day project to complete for us, and compensated him with what we thought to be a fair stipend for his time. He completed the project, we hired him, he cleaned up the project, and we actually put it into production a week after his hiring date.

Everything worked out fine, and the developer in question is quite competent, sane, and rational.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#162

Post by andraz »

eagleEye wrote: post #133
currywurst wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard this anecdote from many of my friends as well. So my advice would be : any devs frustrated with jobs in their country head over to Germany ! It's a beautiful place with a comfortable work culture ...

I'm a student and I'm thinking about taking a year off from college (a CS degree) and explore the world of startups. US is out of option leaving with some European country. I've heard Germany has a very vibrant software industry. Can you please give a little more information about heading over to Germany?

Think about Slovenia too... very vibrant start-up community here, English is a standard too.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#163

Post by bugsy »

kaiwetzel wrote: post #136
bugsy wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually find people that expect candidates to implement quicksort? I've certainly implemented it, but there's no way I have it memorized, it's not an obvious algorithm at all. I'd be flabbergasted to be asked to implement it from memory with no warning. It seems clear to me that one would be testing for if the person happened to have looked at the algorithm recently, not if they were competent.

In college ("computer science part A",using Haskell) we played out the various sorting algorithms we learned in class, with students holding up a number (to determine sorting order). Neat to actually experiencing the slowness of bubblesort vs. mergesort/quicksort ;) We repeated the performance in front of a local mall - I can't recommend trying something like that in a crowded place from that experience. I think expe…

Yeah doing a binary search in an array is pretty standard. What I was asking though is quicksort since that was mentioned. It's not obvious by any means how it works and I recall that early reference implementations had bugs that were unknown for years even though widely used. It really sounds to me like asking someone to implement the FFT in an interview. What are you really testing for when you do that?

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#164

Post by aplusbi »

btmorex wrote: post #14

Seems to me you just shouldn't ask typical "CS problems". The problem with those is that a positive result doesn't necessarily mean that the candidate knows anything. It could be that they've just interviewed so many times that they know a few common answers to memorize. I still think asking coding questions is extremely important. Programming is one job where you can actually test skill in the interview (unlike mana…

If you assume the goal of an interview is to hire "good" people then you're right. If you assume the goal of an interview is to not hire "bad" people, then I think you're wrong.

I think in practice it's almost impossible to determine if someone is a "good" hire based solely on an interview (regardless of technique). It is possible to determine is someone is a "bad" hire based on an interview however.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#165

Post by nuttycom »

swampthing wrote: post #54
tptacek wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If (3) is working for you, great; however, bear in mind that it's a seller's market for talent right now. I'd neg an offer contingent on doing a 3 month contract first, and I'd advise my friends to do the same; why should I shoulder that risk, if there are 2-3 other good positions open that will take it on for me by offering FT right away?

Conversely, (3) might attract some programmers who want to work at a place that is very careful about who they bring on FT. There are three risks compared to a FT offer - (1) the business goes south and they can't afford to bring you on FT (in which case you might be screwed even if you had gotten a FT offer), (2) you're not a cultural fit (in which case, it's the better outcome for everybody) and (3) you don't meet…

As a candidate, I would like this approach a lot because it would give me a better opportunity to evaluate the organization to find out whether it'd be the kind of place I'd like to work. A short contract is an excellent way for both sides to evaluate one another and make sure that the fit is mutual; I've worked both in places where I loved the technology but disliked the culture and vice versa and neither one is great for long-term full time employment.

Of course, that is provided that the company would be paying my standard consulting rate for the relevant 3-month period.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#166

Post by mncolinlee »

I was very impressed when an employer used an open notes, take home exam in the second interview. Initially, they had tried a written, proctored exam during the first interview.

Although I was the only candidate among many who did not claim any experience in the actual technologies listed in the position, I was also the only candidate who turned in the take home exam. I also completed my working code in 8 hrs rather than the week time limit. The others all quit the exam at various stages because they did not possess the tenacity to hunt down technical knowledge online required to implement the proof of concept software. At the third interview, they asked me how I came to my solution and why I chose certain methods in order to validate that I completed the work myself.

This seemed like an great alternative to other exam experiences I'd had. At another interview, a non-technical company officer asked me a technical question and then couldn't explain it. The question was so opaque that it took thirty minutes of probing and badgering him to even understand the question. By this point, I was ready to write them off and leave. They lost their largest customer the next week and I would've been laid off if I'd joined them.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#168

Post by nuttycom »

georgieporgie wrote: post #96
tptacek wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Virtually all employment in the US is at will, meaning you are continually on "probation". The difference between a contractor and an FT is that the contractor is 1099'd, pays both halves of FICA taxes, and isn't provided health insurance; more importantly, when the employer is as overt about the issue as "not hiring you full time", there's no implied social contract or norm ensuring you'll even end up getting the jo…

Contractors make significantly more money than full time devs partly for this reason I've always heard that, yet when I look for contract work, it's always at equivalent or less than my hourly equivalent as a full-time dev. Full time was $100k - $115k/yr, contract was $40 - $50/hr, in the SF Bay Area.

Then you're looking for contracts from the wrong kinds of companies; standard rates for most folks with a decent amount of experience start around $100/hr, more for short contracts, maybe a little less for longer ones or preferred repeat clients.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#169

Post by Jeema3000 »

Knowing all about data structures and other computer science implementation-related stuff means exactly nothing if a person can't think creatively enough about how to approach a real-world problem to begin with. Those data structure CS questions are down in the weeds and you haven't even figured out if the person can get down to the weeds if you're asking those sort of questions in a first-round interview.

I mean think about it: do you approach programming tasks top-down or bottom-up, usually?

Critical thinking is the most important skill IMO, and it can only be tested by giving someone open-ended questions on how they would approach real-world assignments, preferably in a low-pressure take-home test kind of thing - again IMO...

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#170

Post by arghnoname »

swampthing wrote: post #57
tptacek wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Virtually all employment in the US is at will, meaning you are continually on "probation". The difference between a contractor and an FT is that the contractor is 1099'd, pays both halves of FICA taxes, and isn't provided health insurance; more importantly, when the employer is as overt about the issue as "not hiring you full time", there's no implied social contract or norm ensuring you'll even end up getting the jo…

Try looking at it a different way - assume, you will have a full time job at either of these prospective employers. Do you want the one that makes FT offers immediately, or the one that makes them only after testing new people out for 3 months?

My first programming job started with a two week contract which then ultimately became a FT position.

So I accepted a position like that and it worked out fine, but honestly, I will never do it again. I only accepted it in the first place because I was a desperate, inexperienced hire without any alternatives. Now I'm more skilled and have experience that demonstrates at least some ability. Accordingly, I don't need to take those kinds of risks.

Just because I'm good, maybe the boss's wife decides she doesn't like me or I lose some political blame-the-new-guy game, or they decide on entirely different qualities in a hire, or whatever. In this climate that sort of risk is their problem. I also won't do 10 hour programming 'tests' and I'm pretty reluctant to do several full-day programming interview marathon sessions. It sucks, I don't want to take the time off for that crap, and most importantly...

I don't have to.

This means there are places I can't work at, but there are plenty that would be glad to have me, and that suits me fine.

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