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China suppression of Uighurs meets U.N. definition of genocide, report says

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Re: China suppression of Uighurs meets U.N. definition of genocide, report says

#161

Post by zornthewise »

ironman1478 wrote: post #47
AHappyCamper wrote: post #23

I understand that China is extremely powerful both militarily and economically, but it just makes me so sad that such atrocities against humanity are occurring at the hands of a superpower, deep into the 21st century. Forgive my naiveté, but aren't we supposed to be past this type of thing as a species already? Wasn't that the whole point of the 20th century - to show us all the things we shouldn't be doing?

As I've gotten older, I've come to really feel like humans just haven't been around that long and we really haven't progressed that much outside of technology. WW2 wasn't really that long ago and neither was the the American civil war, both wars based on race and atrocities. I think it's a bit of a fallacy to think that just because some country is technology and economically advanced it will have correct moral value…

The discussion is really about the Chinese (and American) governments. The US government is really... Not great. See wars in the middle east, spying on its people, military industrial complex, bad environmental record, bad civil rights record and all of these are ongoing problems. I dont think the US government is any better than the Chinese government. They have been responsible for so much instability in the world in the middle east, Africa, south asia and south America even if we just want to focus on how they treat people.

Re: China suppression of Uighurs meets U.N. definition of genocide, report says

#162

Post by danenania »

hkai wrote: post #53
baskire wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprised trump doesn’t use this to place sanctions on China and up his base’s support.

Well, John Bolton in his new book alleges that Trump told Xi to keep locking up Uyghurs. > “According to our interpreter, Trump said that Xi should go ahead with building the camps, which Trump thought was exactly the right thing to do,” Mr. Bolton wrote. On the other hand, he also signed the Uyghur Human Rights Act.

Though it's for different reasons, Trump is putting large numbers of people in camps himself, and we've seen plenty of evidence of systematic abuse, neglect, and dehumanization. It isn't surprising that he would be sympathetic to another leader who uses similar tactics (even if his advisors make him condemn it to keep up appearances). There's little reason to think he'd do anything different in Xi's position.

Edit: For the downvoters, I am not 'whatabout-ing' or trying to diminish these terrible crimes committed by China's government. But I think it's naive to expect any credible US-led action against it while the leader of the US is committing similar crimes on a lesser (but still massive) scale.

Re: China suppression of Uighurs meets U.N. definition of genocide, report says

#163

Post by oefrha »

foobar_ wrote: post #90

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Zenz ... the china expert > Zenz co-authored the book Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation which links modern trends, including gender equality, homosexuality and bans on corporal punishment, to the power of the Antichrist. The more I look at it, history is one ethnic group against the other. The winners do what they want, the weak suffer…

In reply to a flagged sibling: what's there to see in the edit history? There was an edit war (or maybe I should use the plural, didn't look too closely), which is common on controversial topics, and judging from the talk page it has been resolved with a compromise. Bottom line, dude did coauthor that book, and even the title is telling enough.

Also, unrelated, it's sad that any comment trying to discuss or question what's specifically in the article is quickly downvoted into oblivion -- except this one, curiously -- and only general threads suitable (or unsuitable) for any submission loosely on this topic remain. People are quick to post insinuations about astroturfing too, despite guidelines specifically banning that.

Re: China suppression of Uighurs meets U.N. definition of genocide, report says

#164

Post by refurb »

Foober223 wrote: post #78
AHappyCamper wrote: post #23

I understand that China is extremely powerful both militarily and economically, but it just makes me so sad that such atrocities against humanity are occurring at the hands of a superpower, deep into the 21st century. Forgive my naiveté, but aren't we supposed to be past this type of thing as a species already? Wasn't that the whole point of the 20th century - to show us all the things we shouldn't be doing?

Yes you are naive. This is the exact line of thinking Europeans had before WW1 broke out.

Exactly. Don’t forget only 75 years ago, we had a highly developed nation turn to authoritarianism with the support of a majority of the population.

And when Germany invaded West and East, they found plenty of locals will to help them.

We like to think things are different now, but big picture, they really aren’t.

Re: China suppression of Uighurs meets U.N. definition of genocide, report says

#165

Post by TriNetra »

maybemaybenots wrote: post #87
TriNetra wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for a moment reflect on this fact: for almost all human beings on this planet, the goal of life continues to revolve around gaining wealth, recognition and power. By the time one realizes the worthlessness of these goals, it's time for him to leave. But as long as these remain the primary goals of our lives, we can't truly be compassionate toward the needs/plight of others and at every opportune moment, we'll tr…

"for almost all human beings on this planet, the goal of life continues to revolve around gaining wealth, recognition and power." This is a really broad and very specific statement. Genuinely curious what you base this on.

Basing it on observation of primary motivators behind the actions of people wherever I see. money, status and power - these are the things our society has been obsessed with for long. Only few people are able to break out of these shackles but they may end up living fugitive life (though a contented one) - society won't celebrate them - won't consider them a truly worthy example to base one's life upon.

Re: China suppression of Uighurs meets U.N. definition of genocide, report says

#166

Post by refurb »

m12k wrote: post #154
AHappyCamper wrote: post #23

I understand that China is extremely powerful both militarily and economically, but it just makes me so sad that such atrocities against humanity are occurring at the hands of a superpower, deep into the 21st century. Forgive my naiveté, but aren't we supposed to be past this type of thing as a species already? Wasn't that the whole point of the 20th century - to show us all the things we shouldn't be doing?

The sad truth is that the world would most likely not have done anything about the holocaust if Nazi Germany hadn't also invaded their neighboring countries. Killing people at home is just frowned upon, but killing people next door is where you get in trouble. The world is a quite a ways from actually being the civilized place that we like to pretend it is.

What could the West have done beyond doing what they were already doing - fighting a war with Germany?

Blown up rail lines leading to the camps? Would the Germans have said “oh, well let them go then.” No, they would have found other ways to murder them.

It’s not that different than China. You want to stop the genocide? Well, prepare for a major war with millions of deaths on both sides.

Re: China suppression of Uighurs meets U.N. definition of genocide, report says

#167

Post by Udik »

throwaway6274 wrote: post #149
wildfire wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. How long until we can get to 100%? Hopefully valuing life and allowing people to choose will become just the default.

I don’t understand how you can say something like that with a clear conscience. But then again I don’t understand how China can treat the Uighurs the way they are and sleep at night either. I suppose people just rationalize other people in collective societal delusion as “sub-human” to the point where it’s easy to ignore.

> I don’t understand how you can say something like that with a clear conscience

Not the gp, but my position is that equating a fetus to a person is a fallacy based in the idea that it's a potential person. Which however means it's actually not one. Human beings have language, thought, self-awareness, memories, knowledge, experience, friends, family, hopes and fears. A fetus, wild speculations aside, has none of these. A dna is just a long molecule, not necessary and not enough to attribute humanity. A developed brain and a sense of self instead are both necessary and sufficient. A fetus has neither.

Re: China suppression of Uighurs meets U.N. definition of genocide, report says

#168

Post by refurb »

danenania wrote: post #162
hkai wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, John Bolton in his new book alleges that Trump told Xi to keep locking up Uyghurs. > “According to our interpreter, Trump said that Xi should go ahead with building the camps, which Trump thought was exactly the right thing to do,” Mr. Bolton wrote. On the other hand, he also signed the Uyghur Human Rights Act.

Though it's for different reasons, Trump is putting large numbers of people in camps himself, and we've seen plenty of evidence of systematic abuse, neglect, and dehumanization. It isn't surprising that he would be sympathetic to another leader who uses similar tactics (even if his advisors make him condemn it to keep up appearances). There's little reason to think he'd do anything different in Xi's position. Edit: F…

Trump was putting people in camps? You mean the throngs of asylum seekers?

Slightly different scenario, no?

Re: China suppression of Uighurs meets U.N. definition of genocide, report says

#169

Post by danenania »

refurb wrote: post #168
danenania wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though it's for different reasons, Trump is putting large numbers of people in camps himself, and we've seen plenty of evidence of systematic abuse, neglect, and dehumanization. It isn't surprising that he would be sympathetic to another leader who uses similar tactics (even if his advisors make him condemn it to keep up appearances). There's little reason to think he'd do anything different in Xi's position. Edit: F…

Trump was putting people in camps? You mean the throngs of asylum seekers? Slightly different scenario, no?

Different scenario, similar disregard for basic human rights.

Re: China suppression of Uighurs meets U.N. definition of genocide, report says

#170

Post by ardy42 »

iamstupidsimple wrote: post #56
Analemma_ wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think Trump or his base is concerned about genocide of Muslims? That’s giving them an awful lot of credit.

I definitely do. At least Trump and his supporters have the had guts to stand up to China. Nobody else seems to be doing this.

> I definitely do. At least Trump and his supporters have the had guts to stand up to China. Nobody else seems to be doing this.

The problem is that they seem really only willing stand up (incompetently) over trade issues. Trump, himself at least, has never seemed to care at all about human rights issues (foreign or domestic).

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