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Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

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Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#161

Post by komali2 »

cowboysauce wrote: post #30
cal5k wrote: post #3

This is a bit of an aside, but... What I think is getting obscured in all of the overheated rhetoric about race is the fact that all humans want a tribe. We want to feel like we belong to something greater than ourselves. I'm Canadian, but I can imagine if I were to move to France to learn French it would be similar. Many people would be welcoming, but some might be impatient with my shitty French and say/do rude thi…

In the United States, there were periods of time where Irish and Italian people were discriminated against. Yet today, the idea that an Irish people is part of the out-group and wouldn't fit in a workplace is completely out-dated. The Rwandan genocide was Hutus killing Tutsis, yet the distinction between the two was very arbitrary and in a lot of cases boiled down to "the Belgians liked your ancestors more so declare…

Correct.

So let's work towards squashing racism every time it crops up. We had a Catholic president, remember when that was a huge deal? Now nobody would bat an eye. Let's continue this for women, POC, LGBT, and so on.

It's an ongoing battle.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#162

Post by lilactown »

cal5k wrote: post #83
komali2 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to something one could be guilty of merely by benefiting from when someone else betrayed the human tribe. You may not be aware but this is a common alt-right strawman argument opposed to Black Lives Matter. The idea that all white people are vulnerable of being accused of racism simply because of their privilege. It's incorrect, and a strawman of the actual position, which is that silence aids the status quo. "Ther…

> You may not be aware but this is a common alt-right strawman argument opposed to Black Lives Matter. Just argue the point. This kind of insidious smear-by-association is what I despise so much about the current state of public discourse.

I also despise the current state of public discourse for the very reason that stating that at the beginning of their post is necessary.

It's impossible for us to know if the poster of the original point is posting in good faith or not (such is the nature of the internet). By noting that it is a common alt-right strawman, and engaging with it anyway, it can help readers understand the meta of discourse that leads many other people to decide _NOT_ to engage with the argument.

The core problem with the discourse that is frustrating us is that people leverage these viewpoints not to generate discussion and mutual learning, but to try and terminate discussion in order to win people over to their side.

The way that the original point terminates discussion is tricky. Feeling "guilty by association" is a perfectly valid feeling. But the implication is, "things that make me feel guilty are not correct", and that can easily terminate a discussion because we have to untangle that first.

Continuing to post in support of the thing that makes someone feel bad is seen as callous, which is why I believe the replier speaking up for BLM is being downvoted. They are ignoring the OPs feelings, which _may_ be valid and real, but it can just as easily be an attempt to redirect the discussion.

Ultimately, feelings of guilt is not something that can really be processed over posts on social media, which is why I wish that the greater HN community would engage less in upvoting "peoples tactics made me feel bad" and more in productive discussion of how to do better than the status quo when it came to racial justice and other social topics.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#164

Post by komali2 »

dx87 wrote: post #115
metalgearsolid3 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make any sense to me considering an uncontrolled outburst of anger is the exact kind of thing that gets people punished by law.

Anger isn't what's being punished, choosing to act on it is. I've met people who think that racism is an act that people choose, instead of a natural feeling that you shouldn't act on. Tribalism, whatever it's about, isn't going to go away any time soon, so I think trying to make people feel like they're part of the same tribe is a better solution than trying to legislate away millennia of human nature.

I don't think anti-racist legislation (what even is that? Do you mean maybe civil rights acts type things?) Is trying to legislate away human nature. Near perfect empathy is also in human nature. After all, why are we capable of desiring to end racism? It's about choosing the ethical and good parts of our nature, promoting that, and making Hate the less desirable choice.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#165

Post by komali2 »

Tronno wrote: post #31
catalogia wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anger is a choice, at least to a limited extent. Managing ones emotions is a skill that can be honed with practice, if you're willing to make the effort. I don't say this to nitpick your point. I just think it's worth saying since some people may not realize they have a choice.

Managing one's emotions is a choice, experiencing them in the first place is not.

To a point. Eventually your own management gets to the point where a certain emotion doesn't get experienced at all.

Personal experience. I used to fly into a red hot rage on the road. Now someone cuts me off and I feel absolutely nothing at all about it. My management made my anger a choice.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#166

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

komali2 wrote: post #153
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every POC I know thinks that these kinds of efforts are often, although not always, patronizing. (In some cases even beyond patronizing; I've heard a few people say it's actively hurting their career, because they spend so much time being voluntold into diversity discussions that it cuts into their bandwidth for their real job.)

If it's patronizing, it's a shitty diversity and inclusion program. Your conversations are the opposite of the ones I've had.

I agree, and I’m absolutely in favor of good diversity programs. It just seems to me that the attitude of “don’t strive to be race blind, always keep yourself aware” consistently leads to bad programs. By far the most bigoted thing I’ve heard at work was in a diversity seminar, where the instructor (a white man) told me (a Hispanic man) that we must make sure to call on Latinas in meetings because they’re not comfortable speaking up for themselves.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#167

Post by jjeaff »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #125
Klinky wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds kind of like "all workers matter", which ignores the current and historical challenges gender/race minorities have experienced in certain fields of work. If you are the majority it can be very easy to be blind to the plight of the minority. "I see a black man or a woman got hired, so things must be fine." I don't think there is harm in making extra effort to ensure inclusion of minorities within the group…

It's very important to ensure inclusion, and there's no harm in it when it's done well. But if you find yourself keeping mental notes of everyone's skin color to figure out how you should interact with them, that's not really inclusion.

Just know that whether you are consciously making mental notes on skin color or not, your unconscious mind definitely is taking notes and affecting your behaviour accordingly.

And this goes both ways. Racial bias exists in all human beings. It's just that when you are a member of the group that is overwhelmingly represented in all corners of power, that racial bias tends to help you while harming others.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#168

Post by baron816 »

> Black people make up 13% of the US population, we are naturally in the minority. But in the tech workforce, we are missing. Among the top eight largest tech companies in the land, black people account for only 3.1% of the workforce.

I don't think it's fair to compare the ratio of black people in tech/at large tech companies to the population as a whole.

There are a lot of things keeping black people from being able to even consider a career in tech, particularly educational attainment. Sure, you can get a job in tech without a college degree, but black people are still much less likely to have access to a computer or a high speed internet connection, or have the free time to be able to tech themselves the necessary skills.

Let's also not forget that, horrifically, 1 in 3 black men in America have spent time in prison (many unjustly).

So I think before we go around and say X company is racist because at least 13% of their workforce isn't black, we need to contend with how awful outcomes for black people are in America and try instead to do what we can to ensure they have a truly equal opportunity to thrive.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#169

Post by hardlianotion »

komali2 wrote: post #133
numpad0 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BLM has been creeping towards Asia where I am, and some of those activists are absurdly trying to redefine some Asian views of aesthetics as White admirations that the noble White must responsibly educate to eliminate. To me these ungrounded imaginations are clearly stemming from the idea that some people are objectively not colored and others are colored. I’ve never come across this “POC” term but if it’s not racist…

Lol. The classic "no YOU'RE racist for pointing out race exists!" Deny that black Americans are terrorized by cops. Pretend that people of color is a non concept all you want. It won't change reality. You are aiding a racist status quo when you fight against ally causes like BLM.

The situation we are living in at the moment is not a dichotomy.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#170

Post by cwhiz »

In all my years of interviewing people I have only interviewed a black person twice. I hired one of them and the other turned me down. I’m sure I’ve screened out some in the phone conversation stage but it’s impossible to know for sure.

I sometimes wonder about this. I don’t think I’ve ever discounted someone based on their name or how they spoke, but it would also be difficult for me to determine that. I also don’t recall but a few black students in CS or SE during undergrad. Are black people extremely underrepresented in CS fields, in general?

It’s also impossible to not guess when you see a name or hear someone talk. If I saw a peculiar name or heard a peculiar accent I would be curious to hear their story. I can try to ignore that impulse but the fact of the matter is if I saw the name “Steven White” I would be surprised if a black man or woman walked in the room. It would be hard for me to hide that surprise from my face.

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