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Apple sends a letter to Hey: Change your app or get out of the App Store

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Re: Apple sends a letter to Hey: Change your app or get out of the App Store

#161

Post by dmitriid »

imtringued wrote: post #36
wereHamster wrote: post #2

Would it be allowed under the App Store guidelines to offer IAP, but then give customers who purchase the service through the website 30% cashback? The price would be the same in both places, you'd be purchasing the exact same service. But a certain group of customers would get a 'loyalty bonus'…

Most likely according to Guideline 3.1.3(b). The biggest problem with the app is that iOS only users can't actually create an account inside the app. It's perfectly fine to use a windows computer to create a paid account and then use that same account in iOS but since it's not possible to create a paid account on iOS and then use it on a windows pc it's violating the guidelines.

Because Apple forbids you from even describing how you can sign up outside Apple. Much less provide a link.

Re: Apple sends a letter to Hey: Change your app or get out of the App Store

#162

Post by myroslambda »

I can offer some opinion as developer in a small indie game company (shameless self-promotion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23565739).

Supporting iOS is super hard for us. The Apple market is heavily controlled and supervised. We have had apps rejected because we included links to the Android equivalent in the description (same price, so no big reason to switch platforms when you are already on our iTunes page, and no way anyone can install an Android app on an iPhone anyway). Apple used to offer a more or less standard set of phones, resolutions, and architecture. But that has diversified more in the last years. For Android and Linux, we have it much easier to build tools, to handle dependencies, and generally to deploy. Actually, all development happens on Linux, simply because it's a much better and more comfortable platform. When we need to deploy for iOS, we boot the mac computer (which we had to pay for), re-compile the game, try it on the iPhone (which we also had to pay for), upload, and turn it off. Additionally, and I don't have all the details on this myself, Google apparently has also made it much easier for us than Apple to operate when it comes to taxes and banking.

We normally have to sell thousands of units per month to "make it" (and we don't). For Android, the fees are low enough to justify keeping things open even if we don't sell much one month.

In a wider perspective, we operate in a market with lots of apps and games being offered for free, really high fees and standards set by the major stores, and continuous pressure from the community, our competitors (of course!) and ourselves to release more of our work as open source. Essentially, the combination is crushing, and Apple's move does not help :(

For what is worth, we recently launched "safe2play" (https://keera.co.uk/2020/06/17/safe2play-caring-for-privacy-...), which is an idea meant to make both people safer and the pricing model more transparent. It would probably align with Apple's desires better too, although that's an unintended side-effect.

Re: Apple sends a letter to Hey: Change your app or get out of the App Store

#163

Post by Hamuko »

corobo wrote: post #19
officemonkey wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We didn't get our cut" should only apply if they add value. What value does the App Store provide Hey?

Access to 20 billion unjailbroken iPhones

Apparently AT&T Mobility gives access to 144 million subscribers. I think this is an incredible value proposition that AT&T is offering to Netflix, HBO and the likes.

For reasons unknown, Netflix apparently hates this incredible offer.

https://www.attpublicpolicy.com/broadband/who-should-pay-for...

Re: Apple sends a letter to Hey: Change your app or get out of the App Store

#164

Post by oauea »

kristianc wrote: post #136
oauea wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comcast also doesn't restrict all its users to exclusively acquire software from the Comcast Store™. Apple does.

Apple would say tough potatoes and point out that billions of users worldwide are very satisfied with such a deal. You also very rarely hear stories of malware / fake apps on the Apple store.

Yes, so it's time for an antitrust lawsuit.

Re: Apple sends a letter to Hey: Change your app or get out of the App Store

#165

Post by belltaco »

hyko wrote: post #116
take_a_breath wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This analogy makes no sense. It’s not a business to consumer issue. The problem is Apple running their own marketplace and inconsistently applying the rules they have created for that marketplace. If the hotel opened a food court and treated the vendors like this, it might be an apt analogy.

Well, let’s use the food court analogy then: whoever owns the food court is permitted by law to set whatever rental prices they choose for their tenants (provided they aren’t discriminating against people based on certain characteristics). They don’t have to be consistent, because the food court is their property and they have very wide discretion over how it is used. Fair? No. Legal? Yes!

The consumer owns the phone, not Apple, so that's a bad analogy.

Re: Apple sends a letter to Hey: Change your app or get out of the App Store

#166

Post by oauea »

threeseed wrote: post #159
oauea wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What on earth are you talking about? I'd just host the .ipa on my website and tell my existing users to install it. Easy and done. Instead in this insane reality I have to pay Apple $100 every year for the privilege of distributing an app to my already existing user base.

I am talking about the cost of acquiring customers. It's great that you have these existing users but almost all developers don't. And so when people say that 30% is expensive often it's because the are ignorant of how much it costs most businesses to acquire customers. And I have to pay to develop apps for most platforms so pretty confused why you feel like this is somehow unusual.

Name one other platform that charges nearly as much as $100 every year.

Re: Apple sends a letter to Hey: Change your app or get out of the App Store

#167

Post by rvz »

philistine wrote: post #63
rvz wrote: post #17

Maybe they should follow what Netflix is doing, since they don't have in-app purchases in iOS which is why they don't allow registrations at all and force you to sign up on the web. Not sure about Netflix's Android app though, but Google has sort of done this to Epic Games but only allowing logins and no registrations + card checks might bypass the Apple 30% tax.

Be honest. Have you read articles about the subject thoroughly? Hey is implemented exactly like Netflix. This is exactly why it’s making such a ruckus. Because big streaming giants get Better treatment than the little guy trying to reinvent email.

> Be honest. Have you read articles about the subject thoroughly?

Since we'll be both breaking the 'rules', first of all be very very honest, have you read the HN guidelines recently?

>> Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."

> Because big streaming giants get Better treatment than the little guy trying to reinvent email.

Unless they are 'reader' apps under guideline 3.1.3(a) [0]. Thus it isn't quite like as you said: 'Hey is implemented exactly like Netflix.' as Hey isn't a reader app, therefore they are not exactly under the same category of apps like Netflix. Nice try though, thanks for playing. I still look forward to the anti-trust battle.

[0] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#rea...

Re: Apple sends a letter to Hey: Change your app or get out of the App Store

#168

Post by corobo »

horsawlarway wrote: post #85
corobo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Access to 20 billion unjailbroken iPhones

Yes, list more abuse as a reason to justify this particular abuse.

I try to interpret peoples' statements in the best possible light, you appear to do the opposite. I've justified nothing.

Re: Apple sends a letter to Hey: Change your app or get out of the App Store

#169

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

IncRnd wrote: post #104
simion314 wrote: post #37

Would it be more fair that - developers paid a hosting subscription for their app - pay for bandwidth used by the app downloads - pay for each update review - optional pay for promotion - Apple would not block legal content, just put it under a new category of stuff Apple disaproves but is legal. This would fix a part for the issues with stores, Apple can't say that they are hosting your app for free anymore or that…

That's absurd. The app store is not a service to developers but to consumers that Apple uses in order to have a working ecosystem.

I don't really understand the argument. The App Store can be a service to both developers and consumers.

That's typically what a store is. Product manufacturers accept that they will sell more of their product in stores, enough to make up for the margin added by the retailer, vs direct sales. Consumers accept to pay more the convenience.

Re: Apple sends a letter to Hey: Change your app or get out of the App Store

#170

Post by hyko »

newbie578 wrote: post #153
hyko wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offence taken, we are all students :) Monopolies (and duopolies, where there is collusion ) can be bad for society, which is why we have specific exceptions in law to deal with them. Apple doesn’t hold a monopoly position in the smartphone market. In fact, they don’t even hold a majority position in the smartphone market. This is like going after Dr Pepper with antitrust...it’s never going to happen.

You should check your facts then :) As of May 2020, iOS is 52% of marketshare in North America ;) https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/north-amer...

Thanks for the link, that is a good resource. I was wrong about them having a minority market share in the U.S., they’re more popular than I thought! They are still far from a monopoly position. Looks like it’s a roughly 70/30 split globally, though that’s not relevant for U.S. antitrust law (may be more relevant in Europe).
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