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Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

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Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#161

Post by noughtme »

dcposch wrote: post #88
mikekhusid wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Camden thing is going around a lot but to me it seems like they did a reorg and actually ended up hiring more police. https://www.tapinto.net/towns/camden/sections/law-and-justic...

They did a more than just a reorg. Disbanding and replacing a PD eliminates the old police union contracts. Those lopsided contracts are at the root of the impunity and violence we've seen over the past week. Many cities have made extraordinary contractual concessions, including: - Secrecy clauses. Officer Bob might have 31 excessive force complaints against him, but the city is contractually forbidden from making th…

It’s important to note these provisions are given to police in lieu of salary increases. Citizens and elected officials could choose to raise police wages, attract better candidates and not substitute legal concessions for salary increases. When cities are trying to cut costs, these “free” provisions can seem like a no brainer, as opposed to giving in to wage increases.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#162

Post by ufmace »

I don't live in Minneapolis, and I don't know if this is the right solution or not. But what bothers me about what I've read so far, is they seem to have remarkably little details about exactly what they want to replace the department with. Exactly what does "community-led public safety" mean?

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#163

Post by lallysingh »

_bxg1 wrote: post #3

a) I'm incredibly happy to see that the masses still have a voice b) I'm not positive this is the right solution, but it could be, and it will be fascinating to see how it plays out and whether it's something that could work everywhere

It doesn't matter if this is the right solution, what matters is that they're willing to substantially change things to improve them. If they're wrong, they can change it again.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#164

Post by sunseb »

aspenmayer wrote: post #134
sunseb wrote: post #7

What could go wrong? Lunatics are running the asylum it seems. Authority is always here. Disband the police and you will get another arbitrary authority (being gangs, some kind of political repression, and so). There already are no-go zones in Europa where the police don't go anymore, believe me, you wouldn't want to live there. If you don't want the official police anymore, why not starting with your place, your hom…

> What could go wrong? Lunatics are running the asylum it seems. Authority is always here. Disband the police and you will get another arbitrary authority (being gangs, some kind of political repression, and so). There already are no-go zones in Europa where the police don't go anymore, believe me, you wouldn't want to live there. > If you don't want the official police anymore, why not starting with your place, your…

Sorry, it's because I am French, my English is not that good yet.

My country (France) is sinking: daily violence, ethnic gangs, religious fanaticism, tribalism, women being harassed daily in the streets. It's really scary for the future actually.

So when I read comments on HN about disbanding the police, it seems to me that some guys in here have lost touch with reality. It's not because you are a good person with moral values that all people in the world are like you.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#165

Post by glangdale »

chipperyman573 wrote: post #43
jeffbee wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, Americans need to realize that almost everything about our society is a bad first draft, in need of prompt replacement. People reflexively defend existing institutions, but the more I've thought about it over the years, the more I've realized there's almost no aspect of American life worth preserving. Police departments might be a good place to start, but most American cities also need to address structural d…

>but the more I've thought about it over the years, the more I've realized there's almost no aspect of American life worth preserving There is so much about America that is worth preserving. One easy example right off the top of my head is the law and culture that enables people to peacefully demonstrate like they are today. Even discussing the idea of doing this in many countries could get you killed - or worse! Tha…

I can only assume you've awakened, Rip Van Winkle style, from a extended sleep - not only one so long you missed dozens of people getting severely assaulted by the police and hundreds of people being held for extended periods of time (>24 hours) without charge, but so long that you apparently also missed the internment of Japanese-Americans in World War II.

You also missed Trump musing on the idea of Muslim internment camps, so "not even considered" is a long bow. We might also include "kids in cages" while we're at it.

There are plenty other worse countries, but this seems like a rather low standard for a victory lap ("Freer than China! Less repressive than Belarus!").

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#166

Post by malnourish »

tomnipotent wrote: post #105
mikekhusid wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Camden thing is going around a lot but to me it seems like they did a reorg and actually ended up hiring more police. https://www.tapinto.net/towns/camden/sections/law-and-justic...

I don't think anyone is against more police, but rather the tactics used and how that money is spent. Twenty years ago, police deploying tasers was an outlier. In 2020, it's become normalized and happens thousands of times a year. There's no reason we can't have better trained, restrained police at the same or greater budget. It's the tactics that are in question, and qualified immunity which allows bad actors to do…

One thing that must happen is we must impose enhancements to penalties for crimes committed by law enforcement/police.

Assault, battery, theft, etc., by a police officer is inherently worse than that by an ordinary citizen. They have abused the immense power, privilege, and trust of their position and there should commensurate consequences.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#167

Post by JackFr »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #107

I highly recommend Jane Coaston of Vox for a follow. Her recommendations are: 1. End qualified immunity 2. Curtail the power of police unions 3. We need fewer laws I don't think I could agree harder with this. It sounds like the "disband the police" movement is an elaborate implementation of #2. Now we just need #1 and #3. https://twitter.com/cjane87/status/1267898762845880321

Patrolmen shouldn’t carry guns. I know that wouldn’t have helped George Floyd, but we need to ratchet down societal acceptance of violence.

If a situation warrants firearms, it should at least warrant a radio call to the station for armed backup.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#168

Post by malnourish »

chipperyman573 wrote: post #128
throwanem wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea of an internment camp is not even considered. https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/us/ice-detention-coronavirus-... https://www.insider.com/report-detention-centers-use-disinfe... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/border-fac... https://archive.is/bxmYQ [WaPo]

Those are for people who are specifically not here legally and therefore don't recieve the full protection of our constitution and laws. While I vehemently disagree with these camps, there's no reason to assume a re-born America's laws would apply to people who are not citizens/legally accepted into its borders. A fix for these camps would be to guarantee the same protections we Americans enjoy to people who come her…

There is ongoing legal debate on what aspects, including these very ones, of our constitution and laws apply to non residents.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#169

Post by ethbro »

limelight wrote: post #35
mikekhusid wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Camden thing is going around a lot but to me it seems like they did a reorg and actually ended up hiring more police. https://www.tapinto.net/towns/camden/sections/law-and-justic...

Realistically, that's what will come from "abolishing" the police. That's not necessarily a bad thing! A big problem with existing departments is decades of corruption, poor leadership, and entrenched policies. Tearing the department down and rebuilding it from scratch—even if you end up with a similar size as before—gives you the opportunity to remove the excesses/abuse. You can also do things like hiring more speci…

> poor leadership, and entrenched policies

This is underappreciated. It's hard to seriously change organizations in less than a decade when employees have long tenures.

Opinions and behaviors are only truly malleable at the beginning of careers, and later change is fighting against the inertia of old timers' "Let me tell you how it's done."

Which isn't only negative. Esprit de corps is what holds together people doing tough jobs for long careers.

But if you want to say "No more of that. Now we're doing this" then a rebuild isn't a bad idea.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#170

Post by giancarlostoro »

TrevorAustin wrote: post #13
matwood wrote: post #10

I mentioned this solution in a comment the other day. The NCAA gives sports programs the 'death penalty' when the 'loss of institutional control' [0] is so great the only fix is to disband and start over. Having it as an option is a good thing. The people in charge can't use an 'I didn't know' defense, because that itself is evidence of loss of institutional control. [0] https://www.ncaa.org/governance/institutional-…

You'll see that sometimes too with Greek organizations at colleges. I argued at the time the the "corporate death penalty" was the only appropriate remedy for the Equifax breach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_dissolution

Or broken up and forced to sell to other orgs that can handle improving things from a security standpoint.
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