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Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

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Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#161

Post by stainforth »

giardini wrote: post #157
conistonwater wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is wrong: Ioannidis's major point is that a lot of studies in medicine are underpowered (a similar issue to the replication crisis in psychology), leading to a lot of false positives. But there is no reason to think that this would be the case for a study that finds a vitamin deficiency in the population. We can expect no issues with p-hacking or garden of forking paths just because there is no place for…

How kind of you to summarize Ioannidis' studies in a single sentence and then dismiss them based on your undoubtedly highly-educated and data-supported opinions, saving readers the drudgery of clicking a link, browsing a noted paper and possibility gaining some enlightenment and ease-of-mind. Perhaps you should write a study about argumentation?

And yet your tactic was the same in effect - your wall of text utlimately tries to lead us to dismiss this post and any research at all. You want the reader to stop thought.

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#162

Post by scott_s »

MrStonedOne wrote: post #129
hannob wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since taking a basic multi-vitamin is good anyway, it seems wise to do that. There is no evidence that taking a basic mulit-vitamin has any benefit for average people. Depending on the composition of vitamins it can be harmful [1]. [1] https://www.cochrane.org/CD007176/LIVER_antioxidant-suppleme...

> There is no evidence that taking a basic mulit-vitamin has any benefit for average people. I've heard this, before, i've even seen studies linked. The study you linked shows a 3-4% increase in morality rate, but with a error margin of 95%, that, uhh, doesn't add up to much. The studies commonly linked usually test healthy people without any vitamin deficiencies in order to see if giving somebody "extra" vitamins ha…

It's not a worthless measure, as the recommendation from the top comment, and a widespread belief is that a daily multivitamin is useful for everyone. The important takeaway from this study is not the potential harm - which very well may just be noise - but that there is no obvious benefit.

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#163

Post by alexbanks »

ageitgey wrote: post #2

N=43 (17 given vitamins vs 26 not) Highlights: "Significantly fewer DMB patients than controls required initiation of oxygen therapy subsequently throughout their hospitalization (17.6% vs 61.5%, P=0.006)." "DMB combination in older COVID-19 patients was associated with a significant reduction in proportion of patients with clinical deterioration requiring oxygen support and/or intensive care support. This study supp…

> Since taking a basic multi-vitamin is good anyway, it seems wise to do that.

I'm finding it kind of shocking how many people are disputing the value of basic multi-vitamins. It feels like we're being contrarian just for the sake of it.

Take a multivitamin. Worst case, your health stays the same and you pee out what you don't need. Best case, maybe you're less susceptible to the harsher symptoms of covid. Seems like a win/win.

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#164

Post by karatestomp »

tootie wrote: post #89
Traubenfuchs wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right and it is no secret: - 40% of US Americans are B12 deficient https://www.livekindly.co/b12-deficiency-genetic-makeup/#:~:... . - 42% are Vitamin D deficient: https://www.cantonmercy.org/healthchat/42-percent-of-america... . - up to 50% are Magnesium deficient: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.h... - 10 - 20% of women are iron deficient: https://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0301/p671.h…

I wouldn't be surprised if quarantine is leading to an historic spike in D deficiency.

Oh man, I've never seen so many people out walking in my neighborhood during the day as at the height of the "lockdown". I bet foot traffic was up 5x normal per week, or more. 10:1 it's exactly the opposite and vitamin D levels have improved.

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#165

Post by scott_s »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #19
mikece wrote: post #16

I wonder, when I see stories about studies about treating patients with basic nutrients and vitamins, if a root-cause to consider is that our standard diets are so deprived of essential vitamins and minerals that "treating" someone with what they have been missing causes the body to simply function the way it's supposed to. I haven't read the full study but if it takes into account what someone's diet was prior to th…

You are right and it is no secret: - 40% of US Americans are B12 deficient https://www.livekindly.co/b12-deficiency-genetic-makeup/#:~:... . - 42% are Vitamin D deficient: https://www.cantonmercy.org/healthchat/42-percent-of-america... . - up to 50% are Magnesium deficient: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.h... - 10 - 20% of women are iron deficient: https://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0301/p671.h…

The only one of your links which involves a survey which justifies the claim is the one on iron deficiencies.

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#166

Post by lostmsu »

ageitgey wrote: post #2

N=43 (17 given vitamins vs 26 not) Highlights: "Significantly fewer DMB patients than controls required initiation of oxygen therapy subsequently throughout their hospitalization (17.6% vs 61.5%, P=0.006)." "DMB combination in older COVID-19 patients was associated with a significant reduction in proportion of patients with clinical deterioration requiring oxygen support and/or intensive care support. This study supp…

You can help to increase sample size by participating: https://home-trial.losttech.software/

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#167

Post by scott_s »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #56
Angostura wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just followed the link you posted about 40% being B12 deficient but could not find 40% mentioned anywhere other than the headline.

There is a link in the second paragraph. https://www.emaxhealth.com/13955/vitamin-d-deficiency-and-ge... I am not writing a peer reviewed article. Just wanted to throw out some numbers to engage with the thought of widespread deficiencies. If you want more reliable information there is lots of material available online.

> There is a link in the second paragraph. https://www.emaxhealth.com/13955/vitamin-d-deficiency-and-ge....

Those links are to studies which do not support the 40% claim. They are basic science research about vitamin interactions in the human body. Please consider that if you can't find studies showing "widespread deficiencies," then perhaps they don't exist.

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#168

Post by neuronic »

alexbanks wrote: post #163
ageitgey wrote: post #2

N=43 (17 given vitamins vs 26 not) Highlights: "Significantly fewer DMB patients than controls required initiation of oxygen therapy subsequently throughout their hospitalization (17.6% vs 61.5%, P=0.006)." "DMB combination in older COVID-19 patients was associated with a significant reduction in proportion of patients with clinical deterioration requiring oxygen support and/or intensive care support. This study supp…

> Since taking a basic multi-vitamin is good anyway, it seems wise to do that. I'm finding it kind of shocking how many people are disputing the value of basic multi-vitamins. It feels like we're being contrarian just for the sake of it. Take a multivitamin. Worst case, your health stays the same and you pee out what you don't need. Best case, maybe you're less susceptible to the harsher symptoms of covid. Seems like…

No, the worst case is you throw money away but I guess the HN crowd doesn't really grasp that there are people who have to consider each dollar/euro/etc...

At least take vitamin supplements with proven effect and decent uptake and not garbage filler pills designed to collect snake oil money.

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#169

Post by caleb-allen »

axegon_ wrote: post #127
snikeris wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious what you're taking. I've been taking Magnesium L Threonate, but I'm not sure about it. Seems like a newer, perhaps less studied form. Also, what difference are you feeling?

Magnesium citrate 200mg(now foods) + animal pak (which includes another 400mg along with a bunch of other vitamins and minerals. I'm a bit over the daily recommendation with those two but most of my spare time revolves around sports since the pandemic so yeah... Differences: - Sleep is considerably better. - Haven't had a single muscle cramp even after something like a 30km walk + 60km bike + gym. Otherwise a common…

I recently started on a 250mg Magnesium Citrate supplement. I began taking it because I have been experiencing weakness in my hands, and after some research reasoned it probably wouldn't hurt to at least try the supplements.

I also saw a study that said that 95% of children diagnosed with ADHD are magnesium deficient [0]! Another found a "significant decrease of hyperactivity" in children who were given oral magnesium supplements over 6 months [1].

My wrists and hands have felt better, but I've given a lot of attention to them in addition to the supplements, with more upper body workouts (on top of running 10-15 miles a week) and stretches. I'm looking to get more ergonomic tools as well. While I can't say what is and isn't due to the supplements, I don't currently see a reason to stop taking them.

[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9368235/ [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9368236/

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#170

Post by valarauko »

gridlockd wrote: post #138
valarauko wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least for Vit D and B12, the healthy levels were determined by establishing levels in "healthy" cohorts. Deficiency diseases for both of these vitamins are relatively rare, so it is easier to establish a wider "safe" range, rather than "deficiency" ranges. There's been a great deal of debate on safe Vit D levels, and the consensus (such as it is) is that a serum level of 30 ng/mL is likely optimal. Yet there are m…

> Yet there are many studies that show healthy individuals with serum levels The problem is that any apparently healthy individual may still develop a chronic disease decades down the line. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5440113/ > There's been a great deal of debate on safe Vit D levels, and the consensus (such as it is) is that a serum level of 30 ng/mL is likely optimal. If you look at dark-skinned h…

>The problem is that any apparently healthy individual may still develop a chronic disease decades down the line.

Sure. My impression is that sub 10 ng/mL levels warrant supplementation. However, I have also seen studies that included wrist X-rays of subjects to determine bone loss, and most subjects were sub-20 ng/mL with acceptable bone densities. This was a study in Indians, and another study in rural healthy Indians showed most were in the sub-20 ng/mL range, coupled with low dietary calcium intake, and no ill effect. While it's true that they may develop problems decades down the line, a longitudinal study like this demonstrates that Vit D related deficiency diseases are actually quite rare, and at levels far lower than would be expected from the serum levels alone. There's clearly more going on.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17413106/

On the Hunter-Gatherer levels, I'm guessing you're referring to the Masaai and Hadzabe study. However, is this the optimal vitamin D level?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6180659/

This study from healthy black blood donors in Nairobi found much lower levels (95% CI 12.73–22.07), and these people had significant sun exposure as well. Rather importantly, they note that while parathyroid hormone levels are inversely proportional to Vit D serum levels, they start to go up with high levels of Vit D. Individuals with 50 ng/mL vit D had PTH levels similar to people with a Vit D serum level of 15 ng/mL. PTH causes calcium levels in the blood to go up, drawing them out from skeletal reserves. The health implications of high Vitamin D supplementation are linked to the inappropriate deposition of calcium. Keeping PTH levels low is likely beneficial. The Nairobi study found PTH levels were lowest in people with vit D levels around 30 ng/mL.

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