Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 238 posts

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#161

Post by caseysoftware »

I think this will boil down to:

a) What did the college promise?

b) Did the college deliver it?

Since there's unlikely a formal contract involved, they'll have to make a case with the public marketing and value prop which includes peers, access to professors, dorm life, state of the art labs, extracurriculars, a beautiful campus, alumni network, job fairs, etc.

Most of these colleges have spent years devaluing the content itself by putting it online for free and now that's one of the few things they're still offering.. for the small price of $X0,000/year.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#162

Post by CincinnatiMan »

jboog wrote: post #141
jerf wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, if you're going to fall back on that perspective, Real Life (TM) has all those things too, and it will continue to do so, for essentially free. There will be clusters of that sort of thing somewhere, just as there are "retirement communities" and "bedroom communities" and such. Universities certainly aren't bringing anywhere near enough value for their marginal improvement on those matters vs. what wo…

Why is everyone acting like every school charges Ivy League prices? Most state schools are affordable. Mine is a top school and charges $9k a year in tuition for in state. You can get all of the social, in person experience at almost any state school. You might not get a job at Google or Mckinsey but you also won't take on 6 figure debt. The problem is everyone wants to go to the private/out of state schools with sky…

Looks like total cost of attendance is much higher than $9k/year: https://admissions.unc.edu/afford/cost-of-attendance/ Even if you only paid tuition, you'd still have housing expenses, since most students don't live at home for a school like UNC. So overall I think it's disingenuous to say it's only $9k/year.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#163

Post by bambataa »

jboog wrote: post #133
mnm1 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Alumni have been furious for years now, this isn't helping. This is why I stopped all the donations to my alma mater. Why should I donate to an institution whose tuition has risen 300% over the last 15 years? If they wanted donations, they shouldn't have taught us about inflation then because now we can see them for the predatory scumbags they really are. And this increase in cost doesn't even pay for professors. T…

I agree with the thrust of your argument but my flagship state university is still affordable for anyone. It's not cheap, but in state tuition even if you pay sticker isn't so high you can't pay it off in a reasonable amount of time (in state tuition is ~$9k). It's a great university too (UNC) so part of the way they keep tuition for in state cheap is out of state students pay almost as much as private school tuition…

As a non-American I've never really understood this "oh, in state is still cheap" argument. Does every state have a top university? What if your state doesn't have a good university for what you want to study? UNC sounds nice for people lucky enough to have been born in NC but why should out of state people pay more? Or do people move to a state specifically for the universities?

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#164

Post by bambataa »

lstodd wrote: post #135
enitihas wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you haven't watched "Yes Minister", give it a try. It is a very good satire on beaurecracy.

If only it was a satire. It is as an accurate depiction as you might wish for. EDIT: the reality is worse.

The Thick of It is far more accurate.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#165

Post by JoeAltmaier »

zbrozek wrote: post #74
ben7799 wrote: post #10

This is just the straw that is popping the college bubble. My Alma mater has 15 administrators who make 2-3x more than the President did when I graduated. The President makes $5 million+. The VP/Dean of HR makes > $1 million. Administrators took a 5% pay cut. Lots of professors are furloughed or laid off. The school did all kinds of shenanigans to hang onto as much tuition/board/food money as they could. Students are…

It was obvious while I was a student that the ratio of administrators to faculty was ridiculous. And the growth rate ratio between them was 3:1. At no point was it clear to me what real value they were adding. I was the captain of a more capital and real-estate intensive than average student group, and it was absolutely infuriating to try to figure out how to get anything done. There was always some new bureaucrat co…

Padding certainly happens. The 'tech innovation incubator' at my college has a professional administrator. I worked in the same building. He had an office at the end of the hall, door open all the time. He came in (late) every morning with a pile of newspapers. Sat at his desk all day, reading all of them. Went home (early) having done precisely nothing. Got paid many times what faculty got paid.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#166

Post by coryrc »

Avicebron wrote: post #156
coryrc wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would doubt requiring the individuals be able to agree to contracts would be illegal, this effectively would be 18+. But you won't get young women joining if you also have to allow 55-yr-old male leches live next door. In University this is rare, but SROs can't discriminate in the same way.

I'll cede we don't want 55-yr-old leches next door to young adults. But I'm not sure it's necessary it has to be an SRO, if from what I understand is a term for low income/homeless focused housing. There should be a way for the lower priced remote college tuition to pay for the housing and requirements for only remote attendees to live there. But maybe I'm not seeing something.

Dorms are SROs -- it means a place where you rent a room but share other amenities, like bathrooms and kitchens. It is usually low-income, but most people are low income when young.

It's illegal to create the "college experience" (nearly only 18-22 year-olds living together) without University because filtering directly by age is illegal, while doing so indirectly is legal. I think 12 years of education should be enough for most people and we shouldn't require unnecessary schooling to let people have the college experience.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#167

Post by blawson »

bambataa wrote: post #163
jboog wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the thrust of your argument but my flagship state university is still affordable for anyone. It's not cheap, but in state tuition even if you pay sticker isn't so high you can't pay it off in a reasonable amount of time (in state tuition is ~$9k). It's a great university too (UNC) so part of the way they keep tuition for in state cheap is out of state students pay almost as much as private school tuition…

As a non-American I've never really understood this "oh, in state is still cheap" argument. Does every state have a top university? What if your state doesn't have a good university for what you want to study? UNC sounds nice for people lucky enough to have been born in NC but why should out of state people pay more? Or do people move to a state specifically for the universities?

States pay for higher education systems as a part of their budget.

From https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/article239..., $800 million from North Carolina tax payers to universities it sounds like.

Meanwhile, Germany is re-introducing fees for non EU residents: https://www.studying-in-germany.org/germany-will-reintroduce....

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#168

Post by IdoRA »

adminprof wrote: post #94
IdoRA wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that if you're not a professor, you're an administrator. Most university administrators are grossly underpaid relative to industry. Also keep in mind that the mission of public universities is more expansive than education for students.

I totally agree with you there. But note that there are people who are 50% professors, 50% administrator, For example, we have a VP of Campus Planning, a rotational position, who is 50% professor and 50% administrator while they are in that role. Then they revert back to being a professor after 3 years.

I wonder if we’ll see that shared governance model expand in response to COVID budget pressures? I’d consider that a positive outcome. I haven’t heard any opinions on it in APLU or COGR calls.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#169

Post by mac01021 »

ben7799 wrote: post #10

This is just the straw that is popping the college bubble. My Alma mater has 15 administrators who make 2-3x more than the President did when I graduated. The President makes $5 million+. The VP/Dean of HR makes > $1 million. Administrators took a 5% pay cut. Lots of professors are furloughed or laid off. The school did all kinds of shenanigans to hang onto as much tuition/board/food money as they could. Students are…

Can someone explain to me the economics driving salaries for presidents of public/nonprofit universities up to $500k-$1M?

Are the people in these positions in possession of a skill that non of the people who would gladly hold the post for $150k have? What is it?

They're hired by a board of regents, right? What is the BOR looking for that they value so highly?

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#170

Post by darwinwhy »

mac01021 wrote: post #169
ben7799 wrote: post #10

This is just the straw that is popping the college bubble. My Alma mater has 15 administrators who make 2-3x more than the President did when I graduated. The President makes $5 million+. The VP/Dean of HR makes > $1 million. Administrators took a 5% pay cut. Lots of professors are furloughed or laid off. The school did all kinds of shenanigans to hang onto as much tuition/board/food money as they could. Students are…

Can someone explain to me the economics driving salaries for presidents of public/nonprofit universities up to $500k-$1M? Are the people in these positions in possession of a skill that non of the people who would gladly hold the post for $150k have? What is it? They're hired by a board of regents, right? What is the BOR looking for that they value so highly?

College presidents/chancellors don't do as much administrating as they do fundraising from alumni and donors. This is more true the higher up in university prestige you go. The amount of value they bring in from donor contributions far outweighs their salaried cost.
Post reply on HN