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Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

theregister.co.uk

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Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#161

Post by linuxftw »

Floegipoky wrote: post #159
streb-lo wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those examples you called up fit within that justifiable envelope, in the first case, near unanumously I don't think this is true at all. Maybe if we define the West as America, but even then I think that's a stretch. I can say anecdotally in my circles that the trading of unwitting Japanese civilian lives en masse in exchange for American military lives is looked on with disgust.

I also think it's important to be aware that much of the available intelligence at that time and reasoning behind it was classified, allowing the perpetrators to establish a narrative that went unchallenged for decades. For instance most Americans are completely unaware that the Japanese were actively trying to negotiate a surrender before Hiroshima was bombed. Most Americans are unaware that a ground invasion of the…

We had to murder them is still what's being taught in schools today. In the USA, the ends always justify the means. CIA Black Sites? Indefinite detention? Extrajudicial assassination of citizens? Torture?

It's okay, these people are terrorists and don't deserve any rights.

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#162

Post by cde-v »

polskno288 wrote: post #119
_8j50 wrote: post #3

Actual terrorists(like 9/11 type, well funded) know better than to even touch anything digital for comms. They literally get a drone strike for having called a known terrorist or for going to a wedding other terrorists with cell phones go to. For home grown terrorism, how many school shootings happen when the people who know the shooter literally tell police/fbi beforehand about the state of the shooter. Are school s…

Washington politicians know American workers won’t organize a work stoppage Or even put up a serious threat of one Tech workers especially have little excuse, since it’s a matter of leaving that work laptop closed No one in tech seems to remember SOPA Workers seem oblivious to what recent teacher strikes achieved Hong Kong protests in the face of a tyrant Y’all bloviate all over your screens Who is more exceptional?

A lot has changed in the almost 10 years since SOPA, we are fully into the disinformation age and strategies that worked 10 years ago are not going to work now.

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#165

Post by azinman2 »

pyronik19 wrote: post #121
remram wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume that every terrorist (or most terrorists) acts rationally and has the knowledge you know. That is a huge assumption for your reasoning to work. I think terrorists make mistakes (or take risks), and I'm not convinced that we catch all of those either.

In the context of droning terrorist, I think the anthropic principle applies. The ones who don't act rationally or have that knowledge are dead.

You’re assuming a static world.

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#166

Post by salawat »

linuxftw wrote: post #161
Floegipoky wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think it's important to be aware that much of the available intelligence at that time and reasoning behind it was classified, allowing the perpetrators to establish a narrative that went unchallenged for decades. For instance most Americans are completely unaware that the Japanese were actively trying to negotiate a surrender before Hiroshima was bombed. Most Americans are unaware that a ground invasion of the…

We had to murder them is still what's being taught in schools today. In the USA, the ends always justify the means. CIA Black Sites? Indefinite detention? Extrajudicial assassination of citizens? Torture? It's okay, these people are terrorists and don't deserve any rights.

I'm sympathetic toward your reasoning; and Floegipoky also makes a good point as well.

I've become increasingly uncomfortable with the power that classification confers to the executive branch to shape the national discourse; but I don't know as that will realistically change without an unprecedented shift in Congressional and Executive sentiment.

As to the narrative still being taught in schools; I certainly don't have a great answer for that one either.

We have to teach them something, and you certainly don't have the most room within a child's worldview for being able to address the type of nuance the historically correct narrative creates without difficulty. At least that is the assumption I'm led to by assuming that there is a compelling reason the "System" has converged on the solution it has (locking the knowledge outside of normal curricula, and requiring extra independent digging to get at the truth of it, notionally done on the student's own initiative once they get older).

You run into the indoctrination outcome more often than not; but you should have an eventual consistency effect over the timescale of generations. That doesn't seem fundamentally unreasonable to me. Pain in the ass? Yes. Fraught with hazard to the stability of the national identity? Assuredly. However, if we respect that we the Citizenry represent the standard bearers of national truth, then we must be the ones to change the history books; just as those who came before us did.

Keeping society moving along is a lot of work.

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#167

Post by linuxftw »

salawat wrote: post #166
linuxftw wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had to murder them is still what's being taught in schools today. In the USA, the ends always justify the means. CIA Black Sites? Indefinite detention? Extrajudicial assassination of citizens? Torture? It's okay, these people are terrorists and don't deserve any rights.

I'm sympathetic toward your reasoning; and Floegipoky also makes a good point as well. I've become increasingly uncomfortable with the power that classification confers to the executive branch to shape the national discourse; but I don't know as that will realistically change without an unprecedented shift in Congressional and Executive sentiment. As to the narrative still being taught in schools; I certainly don't h…

> I certainly don't have a great answer for that one either.

Would you be okay sending your children to an education establishment that was pro-Nazi? Probably not.

Start treating the system for what it is: evil. Quit letting meaningless current affairs dominate the political dialogue. Speak out against the war criminals.

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#168

Post by salawat »

linuxftw wrote: post #158
salawat wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think there may be a legitimate criticism here if you define demonstrating nuclear weapon/asymmetric warfare capability as employing terror toward political ends and stop there. I'd tread carefully there though. That's a lot of sensitive history you're coloring with a rather unattractive brush. There is a lot that prevents that particular viewpoint from being convincing without dragging down a lot of the f…

> Those examples you called up fit within that justifiable envelope All terrorists feel justified, or they wouldn't do what they do. > the label of terrorism in the eyes of Western political discourse necessarily connotes violence of an unjustifiable or unsanctioned by the majority nature That's not true. There's a definition for terrorism, and it's the use of violence against non-combatants to create fear for the pu…

Didn't say anything about definitions. I'm speaking in a descriptive sense of the "way-of-life" that the word has become a nominative signpost for. That frequently differs from the strict dictionary definition; and those that stick strictly to the dictionary are not the vast majority of the populace. It doesn't make them 'wrong' either. Language flows like a river; and at best one can end up in the same spot one came to before, but the overall state and meaning are constantly evolving.

>RE: Civil War/War of Northern Aggression/War of State's Seceession

Eh... The folks who's ancestors were among the victims of Sherman's March to the Sea may beg to differ that the conflict was largely constrained to being between just the military. Again, very fluid and slippery if you're going to allow Hiroshima/Nagasaki as being an act of terrorism. The entire concept of terrorism is so murky and ambiguous that I'm of the opinion it is evolving to become the rhetorical boogeyman of our generation; something kept around to scare people into falling in line.

I don't like it... And I try to make sure kids understand it when they seem capable of it. It's just such a damn complicated swamp to navigate through.

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#169

Post by linuxftw »

salawat wrote: post #168
linuxftw wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those examples you called up fit within that justifiable envelope All terrorists feel justified, or they wouldn't do what they do. > the label of terrorism in the eyes of Western political discourse necessarily connotes violence of an unjustifiable or unsanctioned by the majority nature That's not true. There's a definition for terrorism, and it's the use of violence against non-combatants to create fear for the pu…

Didn't say anything about definitions. I'm speaking in a descriptive sense of the "way-of-life" that the word has become a nominative signpost for. That frequently differs from the strict dictionary definition; and those that stick strictly to the dictionary are not the vast majority of the populace. It doesn't make them 'wrong' either. Language flows like a river; and at best one can end up in the same spot one came…

If you attack civilians for the purpose of creating fear or political change, it's terrorism.

> Sherman's March to the Sea

I'm well aware of this, but try to find a mainstream source that articulates his crimes and they are few and far between.

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#170

Post by btilly »

softwaredoug wrote: post #148
btilly wrote: post #135

A point from Enlightenment Now that I wish was better understood. Groups that use terrorism to get their way almost always fail. This should not surprise us. Terrorism is the last available option for a weak interest group that has no better way to make their will felt. Therefore as scary as it is to face, the fact that they are resorting to it is evidence that they are underdogs and we should not be surprised that t…

I thought for many terrorist groups, exciting such “extreme efforts” was exactly the goal. Al-qaeda hopes the US would abandon its principles and be provoked into making bad decisions, leading to its downfall. They had a multigenerational view of the effort. Seems by the state of things, they are winning?

There is a popular narrative along that line, but no. It is quite clear that this wasn't their goal.

Their plan was to lead the USA into a war in the Middle East. There they would demonstrate that we could hit hard but had no staying power, and so could be beaten. Once that was demonstrated, they would be able to create a religious caliphate that could sweep away the corrupt secular rulers that were oppressing Muslims and recreate the religious empire that used to exist.

We in fact gave them the war that they wanted in Iraq. We did hit hard. We were then sucked into a protracted operation. And as we looked to exit they created the caliphate and named it ISIS. It has since been defeated. Even if things are not going as we hoped in the Middle East, they are more dramatically not going as they hoped either.

For an explanation of how we know that this was their goal all along, read https://www.amazon.com/Americas-Secret-War-Worldwide-Struggl....

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