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Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

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Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#161

Post by lsh123 »

novok wrote: post #139
lsh123 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not very familiar with these schools, I am in CA. I think the biggest factor for me during my high school years was several hours per week of 1-1 discussions with currently active mathematicians and grad students. While formal math is really hard to read, a lot of ideas are very elegant and actually simple. It’s hard to find these ideas in a formal math text, but you can explain a lot of things in 1-1 setting wh…

This is what infuriates me about college level mathematics from about 12 years ago at least. Why can't they also explain it like they do in those 1-1 sessions instead of making calculus textbooks that assume you know set theory before set theory is taught in some of the worst most obtuse writing there is. I'm glad there is khan academy now, but come on.

And another point, high school and college level math is coming from the 18th and early 19th centuries. All of it can be explained without formalization from 1920-30 and students for non-mathematical degrees will understand it much better. I can explain sets to elementary school kids in 10 minutes ;)

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#162

Post by readwind »

grawprog wrote: post #128
thaumasiotes wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I struggled with geography until I discovered history Tangentially, a lot of fantasy authors seem to love maps for their own sake, and provide maps of their world as illustrations. I never saw the point of these; the map never really matters to the story. But history books provide almost the same number of maps -- usually one, before the discussion of whatever -- and it just isn't enough. Those maps really matter t…

>the map never really matters to the story. It's more about deepening the story I think and making it 'bigger' I guess or another type of story telling. You look at a fantasy map and there's typically places on the map not even mentioned in the actual story as you say, but that helps build the setting. Look at the map for the lord of the rings for example. A good number of the places in that map are barely mentioned…

Imagine if the lord of the rings' world was like when we were still conquering and exploring all around, and then some dude, tolkien's lost brother, or something, twin, perhaps, with co-systemic minds, mapped out the unmentioned parts, and then you could just span the two things together.

Fun times and theories co-bro. Anyways.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#163

Post by myegorov »

ummwhat wrote: post #113
lsh123 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at that level, I have 3 kids of various ages from elementary school to college ;) There is a HUGE difference in the programs from who is selected into the program to program goals.

For the sake of example, how was Soviet Science high school different from Stuyvesant/Brooklyn Tech/Bronx school of Science? (Just to name the ones I know of).

I'm not familiar with Stuyvesant, TJHSST and the like. The best Russian schools follow the Konstantinov [1] tradition of "listki" (handouts), where each student is essentially guided to re-invent the math curriculum by solving problems. There're no textbooks or lectures. You solve problems from the handouts at your own pace and discuss them with a TA when ready (typically volunteers from among former graduates of the same school).

You can get some taste of these handouts for grades 8 and above from https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%...

[1] https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=ru&tl=en&u=htt...

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#164

Post by p1esk »

aeonsky wrote: post #114
p1esk wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, learning math was never more important to an average Russian than it was to an average American. An average Russian has never knew math any better than an average American. Source: attended school in both countries.

I guess its just anecdotes at this point, not data. But all my peers and friends from different schools, were solving quadratic equations in 4th grade in USSR/Russia. This was early 90's. I then studied in Canadian and US high schools and it took me until 9th grade to start learning any new math again at school.

In Soviet Union, quadratic equations were introduced in 7th grade, not 4th [1], so if you did in fact study them in 4th grade your experience is not typical. And while American 7th grade program does not cover quadratic equations, it includes intro to probability and statistics, which is far more useful in real world, and which was not covered in Soviet math classes until much later (if at all).

[1] http://fremus.narod.ru/schoolbk2.html#mat2

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#165

Post by novok »

lsh123 wrote: post #154
novok wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what infuriates me about college level mathematics from about 12 years ago at least. Why can't they also explain it like they do in those 1-1 sessions instead of making calculus textbooks that assume you know set theory before set theory is taught in some of the worst most obtuse writing there is. I'm glad there is khan academy now, but come on.

There are good reasons why formal texts are important but I can’t agree more that this is not a good way to teach math if there is nothing else available. But you also need to learn how to read these texts at the end because this is the way mathematicians communicate to each other ;) Re 1-1: the biggest advantage is that students can rediscover things. It’s one experience to read or listen to a proof, and it is compl…

I don't think formal texts should go away, just things equivalent to those well done, plain spoken, 1-1 explanations need to be right beside them in the textbooks. They often are not.

Also math tends to have a documentation problem that could learn a lot from software engineering. Single letter variables are not acceptable in most coding for a simple example.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#166

Post by knzhou »

ummwhat wrote: post #91
lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

There are plenty of programs exactly like that in the US.

There are now, not so much 40 years ago. Even today, a lot of the STEM enrichment programs in the US have roots in the USSR. Hell, a big fraction of the physics problems I assign when tutoring these days were written by Russians in the 80s, because they're just that good.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#167

Post by [deleted] »

jacobolus wrote: post #124
Retric wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, the point of textbooks is to educate people on some topic so making them as easy as possible seems like the correct choice. Outside of competitions, the value most people get from those courses is what them remember in 5+ years when their working not really the kind of symbol manipulation that makes can make things opaque. That said, soviet style education produced a lot of great mathematicians especially relati…

> point of textbooks is to educate people on some topic so making them as easy as possible seems like the correct choice It is not possible to “educate” someone about mathematics or math-heavy technical fields without convincing them to put in some serious time and effort thinking deeply about hard problems. Many US high school (and even undergraduate) textbooks are more or less analogous to taking a look-out-from-th…

[deleted]

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#168

Post by wallflower »

gabaix wrote: post #97
ummwhat wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of programs exactly like that in the US.

Can you elaborate? I am interested in knowing about these programs for my son.

Look into Art of Problem Solving (AOPS).

https://artofproblemsolving.com/

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#169

Post by enjo »

knzhou wrote: post #166
ummwhat wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of programs exactly like that in the US.

There are now , not so much 40 years ago. Even today, a lot of the STEM enrichment programs in the US have roots in the USSR. Hell, a big fraction of the physics problems I assign when tutoring these days were written by Russians in the 80s, because they're just that good.

Anecdotal I know but I went to an entire school for “gifted” students in Texas in the 80’s.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#170

Post by chris_va »

gabaix wrote: post #97
ummwhat wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of programs exactly like that in the US.

Can you elaborate? I am interested in knowing about these programs for my son.

Which state are you in? Public resources differ quite a bit by state.

Privately, I would look at: https://cty.jhu.edu/

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