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Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

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Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#161

Post by KORraN »

Saaster wrote: post #158
KORraN wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about what clicking disk icon you are talking about, but today's update showed up as regular pkg installer ("Next", "Next", "Accept", "Finish").

Chrome uses an DMG, and the result is that people are using ancient versions of it straight out of their Downloads or Desktop folders. Zoom uses an .pkg, and have now removed the one-click install script. So every update to Zoom now runs through the same multi-step Next process as well (with one of the steps inactive until you select your disk, as is customary). If you think that isn't a problem for users, you've nev…

I believe you that in some configurations you have to select a disk where you want update to be installed but in my case it's selected automatically so as I mentioned in the previous post, it's matter of clicking "Next" buttons.

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#162

Post by yborg »

1123581321 wrote: post #118
Avery3R wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7-Zip can do it on windows, maybe there's an osx port?

7-zip is great. The Unarchiver is its equivalent on Mac. Suspicious Package is better for this particular file format because it shows what the installer will do, not just what it has in it.

Keka is my go-to for this, actively maintained by its author.

https://www.keka.io/

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#163

Post by cosmotic »

comex wrote: post #43
pxtail wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>with the expectations users have of how installers work Tbh I think that most people here on hn are experiencing cognitive bias because of additional knowledge - reality is that most of regular users do not give a damn about what installer does, they just want working app.

But why are they even using Installer.app? First, why use an installer at all; second, if they really want an installer, why not make a custom installer app and avoid the "run a script" prompt? Installer.app doesn't have special privileges. Is the script approach just easier?

The built-in installer gives developers a lot of freebies like permission escalation and gets around "hey, you're trying to run a program from the internet" prompt. That is at least until developers start bending over backwards with crazy shell scripts like the one found in the zoom installer.

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#164

Post by some_random »

abduhl wrote: post #149
vermilingua wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well then they’re lucky that law enforcement has a slightly more involved process to determine criminality than checking Apple’s malware filter list.

But should they?

Yes, I've always been a fan of not giving corporations the right to have people arrested and imprisoned without due process

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#165

Post by cosmotic »

pxtail wrote: post #37
cosmotic wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may not be exploiting vulnerabilities but they are breaking the contact with the expectations users have of how installers work.

>with the expectations users have of how installers work Tbh I think that most people here on hn are experiencing cognitive bias because of additional knowledge - reality is that most of regular users do not give a damn about what installer does, they just want working app.

Being only sub-consciously aware of the difference is still an impact. The repetition of the install process should lead toward more familiarity with how the process works. The zoom and cisco installers are breaking that repetition and replacing it with something unexpected.

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#166

Post by diebeforei485 »

jpambrun wrote: post #105
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #83

Why aren't more apps like Zoom and this one distributed via the app store? I mean besides the installer hackery they are legitimate and free apps right? Or would that mean that their premium services would require paying the fees to Apple, which they avoid this way?

The app store is disabled on my work mac where I am most likely to need zoom/WebEx.

This is fair enough for managed situations where your company has signed-off on certain apps that they let you install.

But when everyone and their dog is using Zoom on their personal machines, Mac App Store should be an option.

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#167

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

cosmotic wrote: post #163
comex wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why are they even using Installer.app? First, why use an installer at all; second, if they really want an installer, why not make a custom installer app and avoid the "run a script" prompt? Installer.app doesn't have special privileges. Is the script approach just easier?

The built-in installer gives developers a lot of freebies like permission escalation and gets around "hey, you're trying to run a program from the internet" prompt. That is at least until developers start bending over backwards with crazy shell scripts like the one found in the zoom installer.

The interesting thing is that if you hit Command-I and Command-L you can see exactly what the package is doing, and the most recent one just seems to be moving an app to /Applications. For this sort of thing: download a zip, open the zip from your browser's download panel and then have the app move itself to /Applications when you open the extracted app is a much nicer flow that is semi-widespread.

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#168

Post by jjtheblunt »

modeless wrote: post #48
jjtheblunt wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would have to ask for Admin role to do so, though.

The installer has to ask too though, doesn't it? So using an installer still provides no benefit.

I believe that (when I wrote and installer for internal use while at Apple) it needn't require admin to drop an app in, say, ~/Applications.

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#169

Post by diebeforei485 »

Saaster wrote: post #159
lonelappde wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand. How is difficulty completing the initial installer relevant to autoinstalling updates?

Zoom's updates also runs though the entire installer again as of today.

Why is this necessary, though? There are examples of other apps, not distributed on the Mac App Store, that don't require the whole pkg flow for every update. Steam and Skype are examples.

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#170

Post by MR4D »

djrogers wrote: post #122
MR4D wrote: post #9

Isn’t all of this because of the Historical webRTC issues in safari?

In short, no.

So, I was under the understanding that Safari was dragging their feet on the whole WebRTC thing, and if they had come out with it when Chrome did, that these types of apps would then be able to run in the browser (just like Jitsi does today, I presume).

I know that companies have a perverse incentive to sell your info to advertisers and such, so I'm not trying to wave that away.

Just wanting to understand if Safari DID have webRTC much earlier, would we be talking about Zoom today?

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