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Yet another novel I will no longer write

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Re: Yet another novel I will no longer write

#161

Post by jamesrcole »

rapind wrote: post #53

What always bugged me about zombie movies is that no one seems to figure out a way to take advantage of it beyond total anarchy. I would expect enterprising individuals to see zombies as a potential tool. Like maybe figure out what makes them tick (they never seem to possess intelligent thought) and leverage them for a labour force or army. What are they fuelled by? Can they be taught to perform complex tasks through…

You could probably make groups of them perform computation.

You could sell cycles on the zombie cloud.

Re: Yet another novel I will no longer write

#162

Post by gwern »

mcguire wrote: post #85
gwern wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His observation is wrong. In all societies in which there is a power vacuum gangs take over. Witness Africa, South America, Burma, and the middle Eastern countries in which we have removed the “dictators.” And it's particularly amusing because he just mentioned Haiti. What happened in Haiti is precisely why the American plantation class was so terrified: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre

Did you miss the rest of that comment: " Even the term “elite panic” is lie. The elite are fine in a disaster and they know it. "

The Haitian elites were not fine in their disaster. And other elites (viz the American south's elites) knew it. That's the point.

Re: Yet another novel I will no longer write

#163

Post by gwern »

coliveira wrote: post #81
gwern wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His observation is wrong. In all societies in which there is a power vacuum gangs take over. Witness Africa, South America, Burma, and the middle Eastern countries in which we have removed the “dictators.” And it's particularly amusing because he just mentioned Haiti. What happened in Haiti is precisely why the American plantation class was so terrified: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre

The plantation owners in Haiti knew fully well that the revolt was deserved.

'deserved' has nothing to do with it. The American South elites deserved it almost as much as the Haitian planters did; and they were likely correct to fear it, contrary to Stross's glib dismissal of their fears as irrational.

Re: Yet another novel I will no longer write

#164

Post by TeMPOraL »

reificator wrote: post #158
WalterBright wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me that's like setting up a complex and interesting WW2 story, and then just smiting the earth with an asteroid. Lazy and boring. Never mind recycling all the usual zombie tropes. Oh, and throw in the usual Star Wars trope of the mass enemy has a single weak spot that one person can attack to wipe it all out. Zzzzzz.....

Is the asteroid something that's known to the audience and characters involved from the beginning of the story? Is the asteroid something they could unify against and push back if they'd just get over their differences? Is the asteroid something that experts are claiming is coming but laypeople deny first as a fairy tale, then as not as big a deal as people claim, right up until it meaningfully affects their own live…

> thinking the petty struggles they face are more important than the survival of the species

It's a flaw of these characters, and also of the contemporary society. There's a kind of distance towards "petty struggles" of everyday life that I'd consider a part of being mature.

Related: this is why I like science-fiction, especially the older one that's written/directed by people who focus on ideas, and not people. I hate the modern critique of sci-fi that characters are "flat". If I wanted to read about character development, petty squabbles and love affairs, I'd pick literally any other genre.

Re: Yet another novel I will no longer write

#165

Post by TheGallopedHigh »

setgree wrote: post #15

This is an interesting take on what zombie fiction is about: > The zombie myth has roots in Haitian slave plantations: they're fairly transparently about the slaves' fear of being forced to toil endlessly even after their death. Then this narrative got appropriated and transplanted to America, in film, TV, and fiction. Where it hybridized with white settler fear of a slave uprising. The survivors/protagonists of the…

I had read/heard was the idea that the zombies and said plague actually symbolized communism.

Re: Yet another novel I will no longer write

#166

Post by philipov »

Gravityloss wrote: post #155
Gibbon1 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the Subgenius advice for the faithful. In the end times don't be a sap holed up waiting for defend yourself against marauding gangs. Join a marauding gang as soon as possible.

I guess creating an apocalypse simulator game where you could play it very differently would be very hard to create (agent simulation) and might not be fun at all to play...

You don't need agent simulation to do that, you just need properly-motivated writing and design teams.

Re: Yet another novel I will no longer write

#167

Post by reificator »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #164
reificator wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the asteroid something that's known to the audience and characters involved from the beginning of the story? Is the asteroid something they could unify against and push back if they'd just get over their differences? Is the asteroid something that experts are claiming is coming but laypeople deny first as a fairy tale, then as not as big a deal as people claim, right up until it meaningfully affects their own live…

> thinking the petty struggles they face are more important than the survival of the species It's a flaw of these characters, and also of the contemporary society. There's a kind of distance towards "petty struggles" of everyday life that I'd consider a part of being mature. Related: this is why I like science-fiction, especially the older one that's written/directed by people who focus on ideas, and not people. I ha…

> this is why I like science-fiction, especially the older one that's written/directed by people who focus on ideas, and not people. I hate the modern critique of sci-fi that characters are "flat". If I wanted to read about character development, petty squabbles and love affairs, I'd pick literally any other genre.

I don't think that they're mutually exclusive. Much of the sci‑fi and fantasy I've enjoyed over the years does both.

Certainly there's more tolerance for flat characters in sci‑fi than in other genres because you can focus on ideas, I agree with that.

But if all the characters in your story are flat, it does impact the quality. You can have good sci‑fi with flat characters, but great sci‑fi requires both interesting ideas and interesting characters. (And that's not quite enough either, but that's a tangent we don't need to get into)

Re: Yet another novel I will no longer write

#168

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #47
rumanator wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty much a definition of "elite panick".

The article defines elite panic as a false panic; a "cognitive disorder", caused by elites who look down on the rest of us and think we're all violent hooligans. If people really are trying to kill them, I don't think "panic" is an accurate term and I can't blame them for taking steps to avoid being murdered.

This is more an outgrowth of the British fixation on immutable class distinctions locked at birth.

Re: Yet another novel I will no longer write

#169

Post by crazypython »

rpiguy wrote: post #20
Barrin92 wrote: post #9

> The survivors/protagonists of the zombie plague are the viewpoint the audience is intended to empathize with, but their response to the shambling horde is as brutal and violent as any plantation owner's reaction to their slaves rising, and it speaks to a peculiarly American cognitive disorder, elite panic. Elite panic is the phenomenon by which rich and/or privileged people imagine that in times of chaos all social…

His observation is wrong. In all societies in which there is a power vacuum gangs take over. Witness Africa, South America, Burma, and the middle Eastern countries in which we have removed the “dictators.” Asia after WW2 was different because the West essentially sponsored state corporate Facism in Japan and Korea until they had 30-50 years to evolve into something resembling a true democracy. Even the term “elite pa…

Interesting, can you share the name a book, preferably rife with examples, where I can learn about the "In all societies in which there is a power vacuum gangs take over." thesis?

Re: Yet another novel I will no longer write

#170

Post by kerkeslager »

rapind wrote: post #53

What always bugged me about zombie movies is that no one seems to figure out a way to take advantage of it beyond total anarchy. I would expect enterprising individuals to see zombies as a potential tool. Like maybe figure out what makes them tick (they never seem to possess intelligent thought) and leverage them for a labour force or army. What are they fuelled by? Can they be taught to perform complex tasks through…

I'm really not sure what zombie movies you're referring to, but any zombie movie that goes far enough time-wise after the zombies rise, pretty much always comes to a point where people start using zombies. Movies usually don't because it's hard to fit the long game into 120 minutes, but any series of books or TV show I've come across does exactly that.

I think it's pretty reasonable that early on in a zombie apocalypse, "enterprising individuals" would be just trying to figure out how to stay alive.

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