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Don’t bail out the cruise industry

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Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#161

Post by bradleyjg »

mschuster91 wrote: post #159
bradleyjg wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not necessarily the case. They’d have to either have that cash on hand or be able to raise it in the debt or equity markets. If these are long term viable businesses, I don’t see why they shouldn’t be able to do just that. Doesn’t seem like any are trying because they’d rather get a government handout. Fair weather capitalists.

> or be able to raise it in the debt or equity markets The debt/equity markets are beyond fucked at the moment. Relying on them is what led the financial industry to the 2008 crisis and it certainly won't be a good idea to rely on them in future pandemics. > Fair weather capitalists. The entire point of governments in a capitalist system is to deal with stuff that is too big for companies and individual people to han…

The markets are liquid, the government is making sure of that. They might not have the pricing that companies think they deserve, but such is life.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#162

Post by barry-cotter »

Donald wrote: post #100
pjc50 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, the best use might be the "isolate mild cases" approach: everyone who tests positive goes on the ship, even (especially) if they don't have symptoms. If they deteriorate to severe, move them to a real hospital. This has been a big part of the Wuhan campaign.

Repeated exposure makes covid-19 cases worse.

I doubt that. It’s more likely to depend on the viral load you’re exposed to. Being a nurse with inadequate PPE intubating someone and being exposed to large quantities of COVID once will give the virus a head start, whereas running through a cough cloud and just barely getting enough to infect you five times over the course of an hour will give your immune system a head start.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#163

Post by barry-cotter »

OscarCunningham wrote: post #106
echelon wrote: post #78

I had a thought earlier today that might fix the economic situation, but it's extremely bold. If the world congregates and places blame on the CCP for asking us to keep our borders open while knowing all along how contagious and deadly this virus was, that's criminally negligent. Maybe even malicious. The behavior of the CCP after the virus spread internationally is equally alarming. They threatened to shut off acces…

How much of the US debt owned by China is held by the Chinese government rather than Chinese citizens?

The huge majority of it. The Chinese Central Bank has to buy a lot of T-bills to keep the ¥/$ exchange rate where they want it. And the domestic finance market in China is very highly regulated to maintain capital controls; I’d be surprised if you can even buy T-bills outside Hong Kong and Macau.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#164

Post by christophilus »

ses1984 wrote: post #111
christophilus wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve looked at their finances. A few very well may go bust. It’s incredible how many publicly traded companies are living paycheck to paycheck. I don’t like the idea of bailing out debt-laden, mismanaged companies. Let them go into bankruptcy and let a more competent group of people buy them and run them. This is doubly true for Boeing. Get those monkeys out of the executive positions.

The ships aren't going to disappear, someone else will buy them and operate them.

Exactly. These companies will go bankrupt, but some savvy investors will snap up their assets on the cheap or bring them through bankruptcy and be back up and running on the other side.

Edit: My point being, we should let this happen. I see no reason to bail them out.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#165

Post by lentil_soup »

lmm wrote: post #104
alkonaut wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is an argument against tourism. Sure a lot of people dislike tourism but it’s a major source of income in many places where there are few other industries. When people pay local businesses then at least money stays where they are spent, helping locals who don’t work in the tourist industry by providing funding for services etc. Thats why hotels and restaurants are a good way to spend money. Cruise tourism usual…

I believe in the greatest happiness of the greatest number, so I'm in favour of making sure as many people as possible get to experience these places - Venice, Everest, Jamaica, wherever people want to go - with the minimum disruption to others. Cruises seem like the best way to minimise the per-person "footprint" of visiting a place - just as container ships are the most efficient way of transporting goods.

in reality is the opposite, the footprint is huge in terms of environmental impact, the cruises pollute the air of the city. Also, cruise visitors use the city's facilities (roads, trash collection, beaches, etc) but don't leave much money behind to compensate. Sure we maximize the amount of people that get to visit the place, but they leave locals worse off as they have to foot the bill

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#166

Post by edejong »

csomar wrote: post #151
edejong wrote: post #14

The cruise industry is one of the most polluting and damaging industries in the world. It ruins cities worldwide. Their ships are petri-dishes for disease, spreading it directly into our vital cities. They are blocking perfect vistas of the sea. They are ruining local sea life and are spreading non-native species. Their exhaust fumes are extremely detrimental to local air quality in cities. The swarms of tourists are…

I never got it but I also never went on a cruise ship. But, for the life of me, I can't figure out the attraction of the cruise ship. You are siting in this big hotel complex, you are not enjoying much of the scenery, cities, or anything. You are just in a hotel and they even have pools? What's the point of being in the ocean anyway if you are staying inside?

Reflects my thoughts exactly. Also, all the amenities are overcrowded. I've seen photos (while doing research before writing GP) and I can't imagine having to stay in such an invested place for longer than a day or two.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#167

Post by lmm »

lentil_soup wrote: post #165
lmm wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe in the greatest happiness of the greatest number, so I'm in favour of making sure as many people as possible get to experience these places - Venice, Everest, Jamaica, wherever people want to go - with the minimum disruption to others. Cruises seem like the best way to minimise the per-person "footprint" of visiting a place - just as container ships are the most efficient way of transporting goods.

in reality is the opposite, the footprint is huge in terms of environmental impact, the cruises pollute the air of the city. Also, cruise visitors use the city's facilities (roads, trash collection, beaches, etc) but don't leave much money behind to compensate. Sure we maximize the amount of people that get to visit the place, but they leave locals worse off as they have to foot the bill

> the cruises pollute the air of the city

Per-person? Surely anyone arriving by car, aeroplane or even bus is causing a lot more pollution, just on the sheer physics of how much more efficient sea transport is.

> Also, cruise visitors use the city's facilities (roads, trash collection, beaches, etc) but don't leave much money behind to compensate.

Surely that can be balanced with appropriate taxation - I believe a lot of places already levy a per-passenger tax for cruise ships berthing there.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#168

Post by bluntfang »

echelon wrote: post #78

I had a thought earlier today that might fix the economic situation, but it's extremely bold. If the world congregates and places blame on the CCP for asking us to keep our borders open while knowing all along how contagious and deadly this virus was, that's criminally negligent. Maybe even malicious. The behavior of the CCP after the virus spread internationally is equally alarming. They threatened to shut off acces…

remember that time we fucked over Germany after world war 1?

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#169

Post by c22 »

lmm wrote: post #155
c22 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went on a Caribbean cruise once (the trip was bought for me, I would never have paid for it). The thing I found most striking was the same-ness of every stop. We stopped in Jamaica, but it felt the same as every single other stop: Busy "shopping area" right near the cruise terminal, with many of the exact same stores as the last stop. A variety of the same tired cruise-approved "activities" ("touch a dolphin", "rid…

In my experience you can find sameness anywhere if you look for it, or you can find the interesting differences. Four hours is pretty short, true, but it's time enough to wander around a place and experience something unique (I had around that long in Vienna on one trip, but I ate a lovely "sushi burrito" for lunch, saw some amazing paintings, and drank in a wonderfully traditional cafe). I'd argue that a cruise can…

Here is a map of the island [0]. There was a $20 ferry to Placencia [1], but the ferry ride was a 30 minute trip and they recommended coming back 2 hours before cruise departure.

The other stops were a little better, but were all still clearly "cruise towns" with hour+ long bus rides to the next nearest populated place.

I'm not saying there weren't interesting differences. The entire experience was, in fact, extremely novel to me. I don't feel like I've "visited" any of the countries we stopped in, however, any more than I feel like I've visited changeover cities where I never left the airport.

[0] https://1ypfazc0twx431e6w2jik5nw-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placencia

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#170

Post by jacobush »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #116
jacobush wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it strange that ships mix water runoff, antifreeze, hydraulic oil, engine oil seepage etc etc into a huge big mixed bilge tank and then try to separate it with an oil separator. Strange.

It's more like the bilge is a central place where any fluid that leaks out of whatever system normally handles it winds up. On small vessels you just have a straight bilge pump that dumps out the side. At cruise ship scale you can afford to stick an oil/water separator filter on it.

Yes I can understand how it could end up like that, it’s just that I think there must be a better way by now.
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