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Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

nytimes.com

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Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#161

Post by kube-system »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #152
kube-system wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This doesn't require new technology. We know how to make electric cars, electric heat pumps, solar panels, nuclear reactors etc. This is all existing technology. We have some of the problems solved. While batteries are energy dense enough to support passenger cars, there's still a lot of progress to be made before the tech can meet the demands of shipping/bulk-cargo/intercontinental transport. For example, batterie…

Who says you have to use batteries for everything? For trains you electrify the tracks. For container ships you install a nuclear reactor on the ship the same as a submarine, or burn wood pellets or some other biomass in a steam boiler like the old days. For aircraft you use biofuels, or just buy offsets if that's cheaper (and aircraft are only a small percentage of fossil fuel use). This doesn't require alien techno…

Centrally generated nuclear power with batteries at the point of use is the safest and cleanest tech that we have.

The state of biofuel today leaves a lot to be desired as far as the ability to scale without causing other environmental disasters, and many of them aren't even carbon neutral.

As for nuclear cargo ships -- I'd love to see them, but the liability and political hurdles are insane. You'd probably need a really big carbon tax before we'd see them.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#162

Post by toomuchtodo »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #159
toomuchtodo wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes it sound like all outcomes are similar, whether through apathy of doing nothing or through violent revolution, no? We’re not quite at rock bottom but it appears in sight, regarding climate change. The economy is a bit in a wreck already as well.

All outcomes aren’t similar, they are proportionately worse the more violent “class warfare” becomes. The best path forward is almost certainly (in my view) incremental cooperative progress towards a stronger social safety net. Nothing good is going to happen over night.

I would agree with that analysis, but there is a minimum amount of progress we need to pull the curve away from catastrophic failure. The longer we wait, the more extreme the solution will need to be to pull on the curve, in my opinion. We shouldn’t let the current crisis go to waste.

Very similar to mitigating an asteroid impact. If you wait too long, no amount of force and course correction will save us.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#163

Post by officemonkey »

notatoad wrote: post #89
amelius wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The world has pressed the pause button for a moment. Well so far it has only been 1 or 2 weeks, comparable to the annual X-mas break in duration. So I'm curious: are the effects really significantly different here so far?

The world most certainly does not press pause for two weeks over Christmas. It's one of the busiest times of the year for retail, business, and travel industries. Manufacturing operations keep running as normal. Just because office workers get a holiday, doesn't mean the whole world is on pause. This is nothing like Christmas.

Truck traffic cuts waaaay down between Christmas and New Years.

Fun fact: Truck traffic is waaaay up right now, as JIT inventories have depleted many grocery staples. Also, Amazon.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#164

Post by asdff »

twblalock wrote: post #126

This situation makes me more pessimistic about solving global climate change. The economic damage caused by "shelter in place" falls disproportionately on the poor and the lower middle class, who work in fields where working from home is not possible. Emission regulations and fuel taxes also fall disproportionately on the same people, because they can't afford newer cars which are more efficient. When the French gove…

Maybe a solution would be to credit good behavior? Transit hardly makes much money on fares anyway.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#165

Post by masonic »

samatman wrote: post #154
new2628 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you just walk around instead of all that driving?

Around Christmas in Michigan, the temperature hovers around 0C. The person you're replying to is describing about 30 miles of travel, at a rough estimate. So, there's your answer.

0C (32F) sounds high for anything but daytime high temperatures.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#166

Post by losteric »

nradov wrote: post #129
losteric wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people does your situation apply to? Personally, I prefer having a landlord take care of appliances over the freedom to make my own changes.

Every long-term homeowner I know has done at least that much. Many have done larger home improvement and remodeling projects.

Yes, I'd assume home owners modify their house... but that doesn't really answer the question.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#167

Post by thulecitizen »

tjr225 wrote: post #93
ciconia wrote: post #67

Despite the loss of human life, and the economic suffering of a great chunk of our species, a lot of good may come of the present pandemic. I believe this crisis has the potential to bring about a fundamental change in the way we relate to the world and to each other. It's as if humanity is at a crossroads: everything is possible, and we need to make a choice. I read this morning something that struck me as true: "We…

A beautiful quote. I think it’s a little goofy that you’re being downvoted just for saying something vaguely positive. Please, people- keep your wits about you.

Thank you for shining a light on something that you found beautiful. I bid you a safe journey also, my dear friend.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#168

Post by leetcrew »

adrianN wrote: post #104
leetcrew wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would really like for this to happen, but I'm skeptical this is really possible in the US, at least outside the NE corridor and a couple other dense regions. are there any examples of this transformation occurring in a place as sprawled out as a typical american city+suburbs? I can believe the poor state of public transit in the older east coast cities is largely a failure of policy, but as you go further west, you…

Density is a function of taxes, zoning, jobs, commute costs and probably much more. It can be changed given enough time.

sure, anything can change in enough time. but for some places, we might be talking about decades.

I visited a friend at her parents place once in prescott, arizona. maybe places like these don't matter so much for emissions (population 40k within the city limits), but I was struck by how totally dependent we were on having a car, even more than being in an east coast suburb. iirc, the closest place to go for a quick bite was seven miles away, the closest shopping center 10+ miles. her parents weren't particularly wealthy, but their house was built on a multiple acre lot just like all their middle-class neighbors. her father drove forty or fifty miles each way to work in the middle of nowhere. whenever both of her parents were out, there was nowhere we could go. literally nothing but private homes anywhere within walking distance. in this kind of place, you would almost have to tear everything down and start from scratch to make public transit viable.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#169

Post by leetcrew »

vinniejames wrote: post #153
leetcrew wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This current situation isn't too far off from a state where just those who can work from home do so, and the rest drive to work. it seems pretty very far off to me. I'm having a nice time working from home, but all my friends that don't work at a grocery store (restaurant workers, tutors, social workers, theater techs) are sitting at home not getting paid. I'm not sure how to estimate what fraction of the workforce…

I would argue a strong case that tutors and social workers don't need to commute to work. What part of their job can't be done online?

my tutor friend probably has a temporary problem. as soon as remote school gets going, I'm sure she'll be able to convince her clients to pay for remote tutoring.

but as a social worker, you can end up making house calls to some very dysfunctional (or at least, the opposite of tech savvy people). a lot of these people simply can't figure out how to do video calls reliably; they might not even own a computer or have a mobile plan with enough data for video. sometimes the social worker is helping them perform physical tasks.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#170

Post by AnthonyMouse »

kube-system wrote: post #161
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says you have to use batteries for everything? For trains you electrify the tracks. For container ships you install a nuclear reactor on the ship the same as a submarine, or burn wood pellets or some other biomass in a steam boiler like the old days. For aircraft you use biofuels, or just buy offsets if that's cheaper (and aircraft are only a small percentage of fossil fuel use). This doesn't require alien techno…

Centrally generated nuclear power with batteries at the point of use is the safest and cleanest tech that we have. The state of biofuel today leaves a lot to be desired as far as the ability to scale without causing other environmental disasters, and many of them aren't even carbon neutral. As for nuclear cargo ships -- I'd love to see them, but the liability and political hurdles are insane. You'd probably need a re…

Aircraft are only 2% of global CO2 emissions. Generating enough biofuel for just them should be within the realm of possibility.

Even without nuclear, container ships don't have major weight restrictions (they already weigh a hundred thousand tons), so you can fuel them with anything that will catch on fire. Make carbon expensive and they'll just buy whatever is the next cheapest -- sawmill residue, seaweed, whatever. A lot of the difficulty with "biofuels" is the process of making them into oils that can directly replace petroleum in road vehicles, but large ships don't need that. A large furnace like that can burn unprocessed solid biomass.

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