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UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#161

Post by ClumsyPilot »

AntonStratiev wrote: post #79
michaelmrose wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you show me how you calculated the 3 trillion dollar cost? Are you for example counting loans to businesses as if none will be paid back? Are we talking about the economic impact or direct costs or both? To be clear the UK has 29 million workers who make an average of 28k pounds. If 60% of them are off work and can't work from home paying 80% of that wage to 60% of them would appear to cost about 32 billion pound…

What does a pound or a dollar even represent anymore? They are being printed and given out with little consideration to the impact. I think we are going to see hyperinflation at some point, particularly if this is dragged on for the 18 months necessary for a vaccine. Why would I go in to work and stack shelves when the Government will just give me money to sit at home? Why would I even go into the hospital to operate…

Because all of your numbers are wrong and assume that the person gets the best intensive care possible. In a pandemic like Italy, the healthcare system is overwhelmed and you cant get care an ventilator. Then death rates go up 20x, and yound people start dying too.

You would do those things because collective survival of organised civilisation depends on it

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#162

Post by jlokier »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #153
JulianMorrison wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to me. Just sending out money to everyone is simple . It can be done fast .

But can it actually be done fast, whilst making sure none is double-dipping? Are all 18 year olds eligible, including folks that never worked? You might be right, but it's not obvious that the difference is material.

The point of paying everyone, or at least every adult, as that it's a lot easier to check for double-dipping (especially later when people know you will pursue them after finding out), than to spend weeks or months checking for all the zillions of corner cases and rules and demanding complex proof needed in ordinary benefits / social security schemes.

In the UK it is known, by government studies, that a huge amount of money that people are entitled to in benefits is never claimed because people either don't know about it or are put off by bureaucratic hurdles. Government officials generally don't draw people's attention to what they are entitled too, and often make mistakes, occasionally fatal (people have starved to death). And some people get what they are entitled to only by appealing bad decisions, with the appeal success rate being rather high.

Right now, especially for people such as those who are self-employed or with complex finances (savings and debt at the same time, etc), proving elegibility to benefits is very difficult, especially if done from scratch when they don't have well organised documentation to hand. (Normally it's a once-a-year thing, to file taxes.)

But the need for urgent finance in the current crisis is the same for everyone without enough cash.

Some self-employed or gig economy people are panicking about affording food right now, and retaining shelter; let alone bills, and that's a terrible situation to suddenly happen, especially to large numbers of people.

What I would advocate for, in a crisis such as this, is helicopter money to everyone at first, and then gradually introduce more nuanced systems that take a bit longer, and give people time to plan for. So that at least nearly everyone can be safe with regards to food and shelter in the short term.

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#163

Post by ericd »

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #148
ericd wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mm no, a lot of people are already wondering how to pay rent. If anything, that $1000 needs to be higher, and adjusted for cost of living by area.

Sure but then isn't it better to take this approach - 80% of your salary for people out of work and nothing for people still employed - than to give an arbitrary amount of $1000 to everyone regardless of local cost of living?

Sure, they could do it through unemployment claims as well.

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#164

Post by luckylion »

t0mas88 wrote: post #143
luckylion wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd be shocked is most people on this page who are fully employed devs/techs/etc in the US do not already donate roughly 45% to the government. Yeah, but 45% would be federal income tax only in Europe. Social Security, pensions, sales tax etc pp would be on top, and are generally also considerably higher than in the US.

Sales tax is on top of course, but social security and state provided pension is included in the 40% to 52% here (the percentage depends on total yearly income) We pay between 0 and 100 euro per month for health insurance, which covers basically everything with a very low co-pay amount (like 150 euros per year max) Student loans are also much much lower. We pay 1600 euros per year tuition, the rest is government paid…

> Sales tax is on top of course, but social security and state provided pension is included in the 40% to 52% here (the percentage depends on total yearly income)

Likely depends on the country. It's not in Germany, and 45% is the highest tax bracket which few people will reach, but 43% is very achievable and you'll find plenty of knowledge workers in that bracket as it starts at ~55k €. Add ~20% sales tax, very high taxes on power and fuel etc.

The social net has a very high price, we need to stop prancing around the facts. I still think it's largely worth it (although it does contain very strong moral hazards), but I don't believe in hiding the truth so people don't come to different conclusions.

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#165

Post by BerislavLopac »

yev wrote: post #21
osrec wrote: post #2

It's bold move, but necessary to stop people going into work. The tubes here in London were still packed a few days ago, because low wage earners still need to travel in to earn and put food on the table.

I can't see how it touches low wage earners. In reality most of chippies & corner shops pay most with cash + minimal wage. For them - nothing changes. It does work pretty good though for city workers - managers, devs, etc

How does a significant reduction in wages count as "works pretty good"???

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#166

Post by globular-toast »

metaobserver wrote: post #123
justsomedude11 wrote: post #19

I will happily pay 45% tax on my salary knowing the Gov has my back in difficult times like these. I'm fortunate enough to still have a job, but I'm happy I live in Europe.

Why would you prefer the government to manage your money instead of investing and saving it yourself?

Simple. I trust the British government to do the right thing more than I trust the likes of HSBC, Microsoft, Google, Unilever and any other company that's built by greedy people whose sole concern is generating profits for themselves and their shareholders.

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#167

Post by globular-toast »

deepbreath wrote: post #147
advisedwang wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about breaking even financially. It's about knowing you're never going to end up homeless or starving when your luck turns bad.

There are plenty of homeless people in London.

Being homeless in Britain is essentially a choice. It might be surprising to you but people do actually make that choice.

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#168

Post by globular-toast »

pjc50 wrote: post #16

And people keep saying that basic income is impossible. This is an astonishing U-turn, and a very welcome one. I just hope the social distancing isn't too late.

Who said it's impossible? Of course it's possible. But this Conservative government isn't doing that, it's paying businesses to keep their employees on the payroll. That's a very different strategy than UBI.

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#169

Post by [deleted] »

jlokier wrote: post #162
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But can it actually be done fast, whilst making sure none is double-dipping? Are all 18 year olds eligible, including folks that never worked? You might be right, but it's not obvious that the difference is material.

The point of paying everyone , or at least every adult, as that it's a lot easier to check for double-dipping (especially later when people know you will pursue them after finding out), than to spend weeks or months checking for all the zillions of corner cases and rules and demanding complex proof needed in ordinary benefits / social security schemes. In the UK it is known, by government studies, that a huge amount…

[deleted]

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#170

Post by tomp »

justsomedude11 wrote: post #19

I will happily pay 45% tax on my salary knowing the Gov has my back in difficult times like these. I'm fortunate enough to still have a job, but I'm happy I live in Europe.

I’m only willing to pay the minimum rate that people richer (including wealth) pay. Which is probably around 0%. I think that’s fair, and as long as it stays fair I’m also willing to pay more (20, 40, 50% - as long as noone richer than me is paying less). Taxes as they are now (with exemptions for capital gains) are completely unacceptable to me.
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