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Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

nytimes.com

161–170 of 366 posts

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#161
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that part of the motivation for the escalation of opiate strength (fentanyl and carfentanil) is because so many people have begun seeing success with these new therapies. The illegal marketplace has probably been losing profits. Maybe replacement therapy isn't perfect, but I've seen it help a lot of people who are in a bad place. I wish there was more motivation for finding exit strategies, but there doesn…

my dr mentioned that he's had success with the sub cutaneous thing. it lasts a month and it seems like it's a good way to slowly taper down. and he said the bupe stays in your body for a LONG time when doing that - longer than a month after the 30 day period it's really hard to taper down! it takes a lot of willpower not to just take more since you have it sitting around. i wonder if would be more successful with lik…

I tapered off of my Suboxone prescription gradually over a long period of time. By the end of it, I was taking very tiny pieces of the film. They were small enough that at some point, it was probably more mental than anything.

I wish you all the best! After getting off of it, the hardest part for me was still maintaining a clean lifestyle while avoiding the types of people and behaviors that lead to scoring or abusing other drugs (alcohol included) as well.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#162
I realize this might not be a popular approach, but I figured I would share my experience here in case anyone else is helped by it:

I was an alcoholic for over 10 years. I would drink multiple liters of vodka weekly. It was not uncommon for me to drink an entire 375 ml bottle of vodka in an evening.

I never really considered myself to be an "alcoholic" in the traditional sense though, because I didn't let it affect my day-to-day life as a programmer. I was young and healthy, and I didn't usually have much of a hangover because I only drank high end vodka, and I always drank a lot of fluids. Whenever I got a hangover, I would just pop an ibuprofen and the hangover would disappear after about an hour. I would literally set my alarm an hour before I wanted to wake up, and when that alarm went off I would wake up, pop an ibuprofen, drink half a glass of water, then go back to sleep. By the time my second alarm went off an hour later, I was as good as new.

I literally did this for years, while often working 12 hour days as a programmer. Nobody could tell, and it didn't seem to affect me too negatively, so I didn't see a reason not to. It helped me relax at the end of a long day, and it made movies and television more fun and enjoyable to watch. It was also fun to go out to bars and hang out with friends.

Eventually, though, it caught up to me, and I started to get reports from doctors about abnormal liver test results. They were still just borderline, but it was enough to scare some sense into me. I had just recently had a son, and I realized I wanted to be alive for when he grew up.

So I tried to stop drinking. I didn't want to go to alcoholics anonymous (I didn't consider myself to be an alcoholic after all, and I'm an atheist and didn't want to deal with all of their religion/higher power 12-step stuff).

Quitting cold turkey worked for about 3 months, but as I'm sure you know, the alcohol drinking culture in the programming startup world is extremely prevalent.

It was only a matter of time until I ended up in a social scene where I felt pressured to drink, and I had a beer along with everyone else. It was all right, I told myself. It was just a beer! No big deal! I had quit drinking before and I have it under control now, so it's ok! Nope. Once I got a taste and a reminder of the stress relief offered by alcohol, I started right back into it. Next thing I knew, I was drinking vodka every night again.

After a couple of more false attempts to stop (with each one being thwarted by my having a beer and getting sucked back in), I finally came to terms with the fact that I simply can't drink. I can't touch the stuff or I will get sucked back in. I realized I was an actual alcoholic.

So I stopped. I carefully tapered off my heavy alcohol consumption over the course of a week, and that was it. I've now been sober for a year and a half. Whenever I'm in social situations where other people are drinking beer, I simply order a diet coke or something and I sit and enjoy their company. I might even shoot the breeze and chat about all my favorite types of scotch or whatever. But I absolutely do not allow myself to have even one sip of alcohol, because I've learned the hard way what it leads to.

As a side note, during that year and a half, I also managed to get completely out of $50,000 worth of debt, pay off my car, and diet my way from 245 lbs all the way to 180 lbs (still have another 20 lbs to go before I reach my goal of 160).

And I did it all without alcoholics anonymous or medication or therapy or anything. I simply accepted ownership of the problem, made a decision, and stuck with it.

With that said, however, there was a catalyst and a "higher power" that lead to the change and kept me on track:

I had a kid, and I realized that I wanted to stay alive long enough to see him grow up and have kids of his own.

I realize this might not be a magic bullet for anyone (and I hope you get help if you need it), but my point is simply that sometimes it is in fact possible to do on your own (given the right circumstances and motivation), although this fact is something that is not very popular to mention.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#163

recovering addict here. some words for those who may be struggling. i tried a number of things over many years (life coach, therapy, meditation retreats, ayahuasca, ibogaine, etc). i reached a bottom, and nothing i had tried really worked or stuck. kept relapsing after a few months of sobriety at most. ultimately it was going to AA that i largely credit to my successful transformation into a happy life of sobriety. i…

I had other experiences. The friendships I had in AA were superficial. Once, when I was struggling and needed help and people to talk to, I was completely ignored by the people around me. They didn't want to help the struggling - just to have this toxic positivity that nothing is wrong. I later moved out of state. I came back to visit family, and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had re…

That is sad. I'm so sorry.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#164

recovering addict here. some words for those who may be struggling. i tried a number of things over many years (life coach, therapy, meditation retreats, ayahuasca, ibogaine, etc). i reached a bottom, and nothing i had tried really worked or stuck. kept relapsing after a few months of sobriety at most. ultimately it was going to AA that i largely credit to my successful transformation into a happy life of sobriety. i…

After 15yrs of a-abuse, 4 bottles of alcover (sodium oxibate? i believe available - prescription only - only in one country) cured me. I bought 2 cases of xtra-strong beer 'just in case', have had 2 cans on my desk for months now. 0 interest in drinking.

Italy?

Sodium Oxybate (ie: incredibly expensive GHB) is on the market elsewhere, but not indicated for alcohol abuse and usually heavily controlled (ie: special doctors and pharmacies only).

The heavy control always surprised me while other powerful sedatives flow freely with little control.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#165

recovering addict here. some words for those who may be struggling. i tried a number of things over many years (life coach, therapy, meditation retreats, ayahuasca, ibogaine, etc). i reached a bottom, and nothing i had tried really worked or stuck. kept relapsing after a few months of sobriety at most. ultimately it was going to AA that i largely credit to my successful transformation into a happy life of sobriety. i…

I had other experiences. The friendships I had in AA were superficial. Once, when I was struggling and needed help and people to talk to, I was completely ignored by the people around me. They didn't want to help the struggling - just to have this toxic positivity that nothing is wrong. I later moved out of state. I came back to visit family, and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had re…

> When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists.

That's unfortunate, and mostly in line with other experiences I've heard from friends, etc. AA seems like just another bullshit Christian recruitment/retention facility, that sometimes accidentally helps people who buy into it recover from addiction. Too bad.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#166

This is probably not going to be a popular thing to say but total abstinence isn't necessarily the goal that everyone who has a drinking problem is aiming for. Just as those who over eat want to control their appetite for food rather than simply stop eating so do some who have a drink or drugs problem. In many cases the drink is a symptom not a cause. Remove the cause and for some people at least the drink problem wi…

Yup, clicked through here to see if anyone was talking about this.

I always hear people throwing around things like "the only way is abstinence". As if addiction is a binary thing, and is always caused by "a predisposition to addiction" itself, and can never have any other causes. I think marketing of programs like AA has pushed this narrative, with little to no evidence to back it up.

Until I see a study that definitively shows that any further alcohol consumption after treatment will nearly always devolve back into abuse, I'm not buying it.

Did they keep track of any people who went through any programs (AA or otherwise), and ended up with only occasional consumption without the abuse? Doesn't seem like they even took down any data on this.

I see a sibling comment condescendingly hand-waving these questions away, with no evidence to back it up, and it makes me sad that our ability to treat alcohol abuse is so hobbled by hearsay.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#167
post #24

If you're one of those for whom AA didn't work I would encourage you to look at the The Sinclair Method. It has changed many lives for the better (including mine). https://www.reddit.com/r/Alcoholism_Medication/ https://cthreefoundation.org/

Works very well — confirmed here. :)

I've since returned to drinking periodically, but, it's nice knowing I can cease at any given moment using this methodology if I choose.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#168

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

I have been going to AA for a while now, mostly because it is the only type of group meeting regularly available. The part that I cannot come to grips with is not so much the recognition of a higher power, but the fact that you have to believe that you are "powerless" to your addiction. This whole notion of pushing off fault and that you cannot change your behavior without the higher powers intervention is not something I will ever agree with. But group meetings are awesome and effective, and in most areas AA is the only choice, so no wonder AA works.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#169

recovering addict here. some words for those who may be struggling. i tried a number of things over many years (life coach, therapy, meditation retreats, ayahuasca, ibogaine, etc). i reached a bottom, and nothing i had tried really worked or stuck. kept relapsing after a few months of sobriety at most. ultimately it was going to AA that i largely credit to my successful transformation into a happy life of sobriety. i…

I had other experiences. The friendships I had in AA were superficial. Once, when I was struggling and needed help and people to talk to, I was completely ignored by the people around me. They didn't want to help the struggling - just to have this toxic positivity that nothing is wrong. I later moved out of state. I came back to visit family, and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had re…

> ... and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had relapsed after I moved and continued using until I was homeless. It was a drama fest.

I obviously don’t have your unique and nuanced understanding of the situation, but this seems like a common occurrence with all humans when they lack information.

In my experience when we don’t have information, our group tendencies lean towards filling gaps with the outlandish and dramatic.

Again, I don’t know much about AA but I’d question whether that situational behavior was driven by something unique to AA.

Though, their hostility to atheism is a problem they should have addressed long ago.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#170

recovering addict here. some words for those who may be struggling. i tried a number of things over many years (life coach, therapy, meditation retreats, ayahuasca, ibogaine, etc). i reached a bottom, and nothing i had tried really worked or stuck. kept relapsing after a few months of sobriety at most. ultimately it was going to AA that i largely credit to my successful transformation into a happy life of sobriety. i…

I had other experiences. The friendships I had in AA were superficial. Once, when I was struggling and needed help and people to talk to, I was completely ignored by the people around me. They didn't want to help the struggling - just to have this toxic positivity that nothing is wrong. I later moved out of state. I came back to visit family, and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had re…

Like any random group of people, there will always be outliers.

I have had nothing but positive experiences with these groups.

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