Live data from Hacker News

What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

perell.com

161–170 of 238 posts

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#161

Fact: The plan is about replacing you with robots at work so they can rake in more profits. In return you get to go on welfare rebranded as UBI. Look it up UBI is about automation AI replacing humans for profit. (see geordie rose) So your 40k job becomes 10k to 15k welfare. MegaCorps pocket the rest of your wage as reward for selling you out to UBI and AI.

So invest heavily in the stock market and when these megacorps start automating all the jobs ride the likely massive gains?

Have any recommendations on where to put the money from that payday loan so John Q Workingman can retire early?

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#162

The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work. The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer. Excessive inequality is bad because the aggregate utility goes down (rich people don't gain much from an additional dollar, so it's more effectively used by a poor person). Transfering cash…

Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life where they are important for other people. Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide. But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up.…

>Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life

Lots of people know what they'd like to do with their lives which would be important for (some) 'other people'. But often, those pursuits are not likely to be highly profitable soon ... if ever. (Many, many famous creatives never got to enjoy their fame.)

Most of them will never be able to afford to (happily, creatively, eagerly) pursue what they'd prefer. Not when they must invest (unhappily, dully, compulsively) most of their energies keeping body-and-soul-together while helping others fulfill their dreams.

We can do better.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#163
I think the scariest part of UBI for me is, that it attempts to have an universal solution that’s acceptable for everyone regardless of social status, productivity, freeloader tendencies, etc and the fact that this is a Pandora’s Box. We don’t know what we are going to get, and we can’t reverse it once it is out.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#164
post #155
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> without UBI, there is a small number of people who die every year due to not having (sufficient) income If workers spend a few days per year to pay for your ubi that takes away that time of their life. If they spend 1% of their life working for ubi it’s 1% of workers life lost. That’s asking quite a lot.

Conversely, if we take 1% of a return on a capital asset, the owner spent zero hours labor for that, so they've lost none of their life ...

Except someone spend labor to amass that capital.

If I considered saving no longer worthwhile, I wouldn’t consume more. I would work less and enjoy more free time. Of course this leads to over proportional less taxes for the state or ubi.

I don’t see why you couldn’t try ubi in small scale by the fans. The most obvious reason why it wouldn’t work on small scale and only on state or global level is because supporters want someone else to pay for it.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#165
post #62

To me, it's the other way up: without UBI, there is a small number of people who die every year due to not having (sufficient) income. Usually not direct starvation, but exposure-related due to homelessness, or issues such as not being able to afford insulin. There are basically three kinds of response to this: a) they deserve it, all of them b) it's sad, but it's not our problem c) this is not acceptable and somethi…

What ever happened to d) this is not acceptable, and something should be done about it by individuals directly? Why do we need to abdicate responsibility for our local problems to a larger authority? Mutual Aid Societies and religions used to fill this gap - perhaps we can jointly invent a new modern substitute.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#166
There is a guiding Utopian goal of modern economics: a utopia for the rich.

Unfortunately, a utopia for the rich involves slave labor, inequal enforcement of law, and large class differences and privileges.

A true Utopia is very democratic to the point of communism. Then came Communism, and the rich and powerful said "no thanks" and then usurped the civilization struggle of the cold war to undermine all socialist movements from the New Deal/Great Depression and value the rich and powerful above all.

Anyway, it's funny because the point of UBI to me is pretty obvious in our highly hockey-sticked wealth distribution.

Fundamentally: don't let people starve or go homeless, let them get reasonable health care, and that will trigger enough GDP goods/services exchange that the economic impact shouldn't actually be that negative.

Although globally this is just sheltering Americans from the economic class they are all headed toward, the same economic class that the Chinese factory worker is: disposable worker bee, and constructing an intermediate global class for first world citizens, but it's kind of been like that informally for decades now.

The difference is the free trade economists can't keep saying with a straight face that free trade will be good for American workers as their jobs disappear, they retreat to opioids and suicide, and the rest of the global workforce get a couple cents an hour raise.

Well, at least the rest of the world has universal healthcare.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#167

That article isn’t about UBI in much the same way that capitalism isn’t about money. Capitalism is primarily about obtaining advantage and money is one measure among many. The supposed goals of capitalism are great: competition, innovation, refinement, transformation, and others. The problem is that those are goals they teach school children. They aren’t the primary goal that actually matters in practice. If capitali…

Im not sure I agree. These things are relative, and I would argue that "Capitalism" is an environment that is beneficial to "competition, innovation, refinement, transformation, and others" relative to other things. Im not sure about what the "thing" is. Rule system? Laws? Societal norms? But I hope you get the idea. Things are obviously not universally perfect, but what are they in relation to other comparable thing…

The University of Chicago propagandized about free markets, but we see what was really going on in the modern economy:

Cartels and Monopolies. Everywhere. Almost all sectors are down to a 1-4 dominant companies that simply entrench themselves with regulatory protections and rent seek for revenue generation.

Even seemingly pure free market commodity markets like frozen concentrated orange juice have shadow cartels like ADM and Cargill, and billions of government assistance and price manipulation.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#168

The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work. The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer. Excessive inequality is bad because the aggregate utility goes down (rich people don't gain much from an additional dollar, so it's more effectively used by a poor person). Transfering cash…

Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life where they are important for other people. Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide. But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up.…

>Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month.

Is this alimony/child support? And if it isn't, does alimony and child support not exist in Denmark?

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#169
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the current proposals for UBI seem to be talking about relatively modest anounts of income... between 10-15K a year... that's not going to go very far unless the cost of rent, essentials, and services drops dramatically. The reality is if we end up with a large amount of people that are not working then our economy is going to be totally hosed because it runs on consumption. If people don't have the money to cons…

Are you kidding? Median household income in the US is ~$60,000/yr. $10,000/yr/household would be enormous to over half the population.

When people say "household" in these cases how many (adults) is it? 1? 2? More?

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#170

The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work. The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer. Excessive inequality is bad because the aggregate utility goes down (rich people don't gain much from an additional dollar, so it's more effectively used by a poor person). Transfering cash…

Demotivated to work like retirees, spouses in single income households, and people who can live off the fruits of their investments like the wealthy? Perhaps they’d produce art, or seek out experiences and education that wouldn’t otherwise be afforded to them. Maybe they’d take on risk and start that business they’d always dreamed of if they weren’t taking of their parent with dementia or having to work fewer days to…

> Perhaps they’d produce art, or seek out experiences and education that wouldn’t otherwise be afforded to them.

Honestly, I find this idea laughable. If the last 10 years have taught me anything, it's that people will spend every spare minute they have staring at their phones or streaming TV.

Post reply on HN