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How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

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Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#161

Post by tlear »

oefrha wrote: post #142
tlear wrote: post #113

Please if you are interested in this read more. This article is just garbage. Start with wiki it is actually surprisingly good. “The official pretext for the start of the coup was Mosaddegh's decree to dissolve Parliament, giving himself and his cabinet complete power to rule, while effectively stripping the Shah of his powers.[13][14][15]” Say Boris Johnson dissolves parliament takes all of the power into his own ha…

Interestingly enough your surprisingly good starting point (I can't tell since Wikipedia political articles are often heavily biased, so if I trust this one as impartial I'd be suffering from Gell-Man amnesia again) has this to say: > The Shah himself initially opposed the coup plans, and supported the oil nationalization, but he joined after being informed by the CIA that he too would be "deposed" if he didn't play…

In my own read Roosevelt was clearly heavily involved in the first attempt. Second one he mostly took credit for things he wish he could do.

Wiki might be incomplete but compared to npr agitprop it is much better

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#162

Post by coribuci »

leereeves wrote: post #144
anticodon wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never cease to amaze me how blind are people in so-called democracies. People of Iraq were suffering exactly how under Saddam? Now many of them are dead because of the war. Infrastructure destroyed. Many people are suffering from ecological disaster (depleted uranium and toxic waste where us bases were located). And still there's no peace and no democracy. To everyone in the world outside the US is obvious that wa…

> People of Iraq were suffering exactly how under Saddam? The answer to that question has its own Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein...

> > People of Iraq were suffering exactly how under Saddam?

> The answer to that question has its own Wikipedia page:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein....

You think that now it is better ?

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#163

Post by tiatia »

thdrdt wrote: post #7

Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true. Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? I think it…

"Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'."

All these countries are not really a problem. Yet, the US has the most corrupt, the most rotten country in the world, Saudi Arabia, as an ally.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#164

Post by yyyk »

emilsedgh wrote: post #156
yyyk wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And you think destabilizing it will be followed by a democratic government and not a rush of ISIS-Taliban-Al-whatever?" ISIS is Sunni, while nearly all Iranian citizens are Shia. Taliban is a Pakistani proxy organization which also hates Shia. They have zero chance of succeeding in Iran under any and all circumstances. It's funny that you criticize the OP for ignorance, while making at least as ignorant arguments. A…

Since I ignored the Shia/Sunni situation, you assumed that was due to my ignorance. I'm an Iranian (Actually a Jewish Iranian, hence, much more information about religion dynamics in Iran). I agree that Shia/Sunni dynamic is unlikely to cause instability in Iran, there are many more dynamics that can be exploited: 1. Iran is very diverse regarding ethnicity. A dozen different ethnicities live in Iran which makes a Li…

That you are supposedly informed makes this worse, because if true, you know ISIS/Al-Qaeda have zero chances of prospering in Iran yet still made that argument.

Anyway, as I said, the US never did intend to overthrow the regime, so that scenario isn't relevant - unless the Iranian people make a go for it, but that's not up to us.

As for the regime being weak, the key point is that the regime's military counter-pressure plan has failed.

All the wild attacks you cite are tactical victories but strategical failures - they have failed to affect the sanctions or even world oil prices (barring small insignificant blips), yet have led much of the world to see Iran as a threat.

By shooting and failing to win, the regime lost the deterrent value of these threats. When the US showed it is not afraid to escalate, Iran lost that threat too.

What's left? Continuing a strategically failed campaign? Massive escalation, which will lead to the regime getting crushed?

Another important point to remember is that Suleimani wasn't just a general, but the de facto vice-Supreme Leader, the one leader with significant popularity the regime had. It's a huge domestic loss.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#165

Post by frequentnapper »

jessaustin wrote: post #159
frequentnapper wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. 9/11 was the direct result of us interfering in Indonesia east Timor conflict 15 years earlier by stopping jihadis from wiping out christians.

OK, sure, ObL cared more about some island he'd never visited than about his home nation. Pull the other one, conspiracy theorist. http://www.actmemphis.org/usama-bin-laden-1996-declaration-o...

Actually it's many many islands that host the largest population of Muslims in the world by nation. You're mistaken that this is a regional thing. Jihad is and always has been global.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#166

Post by 29athrowaway »

Const-me wrote: post #88
surewhynat wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread is not about Ukraine, but, if we must ... The protests in Kiev and other cities were violent and out of control. Ukraine was 6 months away from an election which they could have normally voted out their president, but, the people overthrew the government instead. Since then, the country has been so much worse off economically and socially. People have barely any money to pay their gas bills or buy luxury…

> were violent and out of control Technically that’s true, but it’s important to remember the protest was peaceful for couple months. Then police started the violence. People have a right of self-defense. > the country has been so much worse off economically and socially Despite Ukraine have been fighting Russian army for almost 5 years now, what you’re saying is not true: https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp-per…

Hostile "migrants" that later revolt, claim independence and join their country of origin?

Wow, that sounds familiar. Like Hawaii, California Bear revolt, Texas revolution.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#167

Post by michaelbrave »

jessaustin wrote: post #89
viraptor wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran Where does that certainty come from? It's not like the US is known for finishing wars recently.

The last war USA "won" was WWII. For all that we spend on it, and for as many innocents as it destroys, our military cannot accomplish objectives that benefit the national interest. Which isn't surprising, because it has been optimized to waste resources, not to win.

It's also arguable that most of the winning in WWII had a lot to do with the Russians, but aren't credited with it in the american narrative. Particularly interesting was Japan's delayed response and surrender after the nukes, which goes to show these were not why they actually surrendered but helped to paint a post war narrative that allowed them to prosper more after losing.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#168

Post by pm90 »

JoBrad wrote: post #151
Youden wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not exactly a fair comparison, since Russia hasn't had the funding to make any large-scale invasions since then I don't understand how this makes the comparison unfair. Whatever the reason (e.g. lack of funding), Russia can't have quite the same impact in conventional warfare as the US. > However they were more than happy to cut off oil to Europe just a few years ago, invade Ukraine, and generally act in a b…

The portion of your comment I disagreed with was here: > I'm not aware of Russia doing anything remotely similar since its birth (where "birth" refers to the collapse of the USSR). While I agree that Russia _cannot_ have the same impact, it’s not for lack of trying. The “unfair” part was comparing 243 years of history with 28. However even within the past few decades you seem to be ignorant of or ignore Russia’s acti…

All of Russia’s actions have been within its neighborhood, the parent is talking about force projection in places far away from your motherland. Not to say that it justifies Russian action.

Their involvement in Syria alone has stretched budgets. Whereas the US can and has fought multiple wars simultaneously in places far way from the homeland without being constrained by finances.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#169

Post by stebann »

Niten wrote: post #127
sudoaza wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As recently as last year a USA backed coup removed the president elected by more than 50% in Bolivia because they nationalized gas and were exploiting lithium themselves.

No. Evo Morales is a would-be dictator who ignored term limits and rigged an election to stay in power. He was forced out of power because the Bolivian army refused to kill Bolivian people to suppress protests against him. The facts to counter the propaganda: - https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/11/16/was-there-a-cou... - https://www.oas.org/en/media_center/press_release.asp?sCodig...

Evo Morales is the legitimate president? Where are the thousand dissapeared persons? Where are them? We want them alive! What about the 50 persons who died in the protest against the regime installed by USA?

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#170

Post by boomboomsubban »

frequentnapper wrote: post #165
jessaustin wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, sure, ObL cared more about some island he'd never visited than about his home nation. Pull the other one, conspiracy theorist. http://www.actmemphis.org/usama-bin-laden-1996-declaration-o...

Actually it's many many islands that host the largest population of Muslims in the world by nation. You're mistaken that this is a regional thing. Jihad is and always has been global.

Bin Laden published his list of reasons for masterminding 9/11, East Timor was not the reason. And Muslims do not have this insane worldwide unity you're implying.
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