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Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

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Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#161

Post by monocasa »

mschuster91 wrote: post #42
korabas wrote: post #8

Honest question: what would be the rationale to prevent farmers from repairing their machinery themselves instead of through the manufacturer (in this case, Deere)? To my mind, from the point of view of the "user" (i.e. the farmer), that can be seen as somewhat monopolistic. I tried to find similarities between this situation and that of Apple not letting users tamper with their hardware, but it could be argued that…

> Honest question: what would be the rationale to prevent farmers from repairing their machinery themselves instead of through the manufacturer (in this case, Deere)? Simple: an old tractor or truck - give me a decent shop with tools, lifts and a crane, and I can repair almost everything that is broken. Some light doesn't work, engine doesn't turn on? Hand me a multimeter and I can troubleshoot it. Modern cars, truck…

In a previous job, I worked on an FPGA/ADC combo that'd give you a nice eye diagram for any CAN address on the bus. It was a ~$50 BoM even at super low volume boutique pricing.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#162

Post by scarface74 »

gpm wrote: post #154
scarface74 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you trust Joe Random to replace anything in the hardware authentication pipeline? Edit: Replied to the wrong comment...

Why would I want a "hardware authentication pipeline" in a tractor?

Replied to the wrong comment....

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#163

Post by scarface74 »

ossworkerrights wrote: post #112
sangnoir wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have I missed anyone? "Security-minded" folk who insist corporates should have full control of their device via signed code from pre-boot, incidentally preventing "non-authorised" replacement parts from working since repair is an attack vector, allegedly.

Apple

Would you trust Joe Random to replace anything in the hardware authentication pipeline?

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#164

Post by maxerickson »

viklove wrote: post #124
SamWhited wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post may sound flippant and is getting a lot of down votes, but this seems like an interesting discussion to be had. Do we (I am from the U.S.) tend to allow companies to screw us more than other countries? If so is it cultural, or something legal? Is it part of our broader convenience culture? I don't now, but it would be interesting to dig into if anyone can provide evidence for or against this.

It's getting downvotes because it was posted in bad faith. Many Americans would say we give corporations the freedom to act how they wish, and we give individuals the freedom to do business with the corporations they choose. The argument to be had is how much the government needs to watch out for the citizenship, because every "protective" law they pass is a restriction on the aforementioned freedoms. The American sc…

Your comment is incoherent in the face of investors having limited liability. The intent of it is to encourage investment that benefits the public.

If investors want to screw the public, we should take their limited liability toys away.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#165

Post by magduf »

heisenbit wrote: post #152
viklove wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's getting downvotes because it was posted in bad faith. Many Americans would say we give corporations the freedom to act how they wish, and we give individuals the freedom to do business with the corporations they choose. The argument to be had is how much the government needs to watch out for the citizenship, because every "protective" law they pass is a restriction on the aforementioned freedoms. The American sc…

This school of thought works as long as individuals are free to do business with corporations. It breaks down when there are monopolies whether they are farm equipment companies or platform operators like Amazon or Apple.

I'd just like to point out that Apple isn't anywhere near a monopoly in any way at all. Nothing is forcing you to use Apple devices or services: there are lots of alternatives. In fact, in the mobile phone market alone, Apple is actually a pretty small player globally, at maybe 15% or less. It's very easy to avoid being an Apple customer.

It's not that hard to avoid using Amazon either. Anything they sell can be bought somewhere else. But Amazon is frequently the cheapest and most convenient option, so it might feel like it's hard to avoid unless you're willing to pay a premium to buy somewhere else. But this just isn't the case with Apple: you have to pay a huge premium to be an Apple customer. Apple is successful solely because of marketing and brand cachet, not pricing like Amazon.

Finally, there's no monopolies in farm equipment either. John Deere customers lock themselves into that vendor somewhat willingly (though there is an argument that in many places, the only local equipment dealer is a JD dealer). There are alternatives: New Holland, Kubota, etc.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#166

Post by tolien »

jacobr1 wrote: post #150
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's sort of #3, but the thing is trickle down is a lie about how economy works that fools people who have not done any reading on the subject. I guess a similar lie for repairing products would have to be something like - the possibilities of modern manufacturing have progressed to such a point that it is simpler, cheaper, and easier to make longer lasting products that do not need to be repaired if they, par…

Apple has at time made a version of this argument for their iPhones. There probably is some truth to it (removing the repairability constraint probably does let them build thinner devices at times) but overall it is more about maintaining control than engineering practicalities.

You see the same about notebook computers with soldered RAM/storage - hand-wavey arguments about socketed hardware coming loose.

Like with most of the half-truths you find on the internet, it seems plausible but without evidence such as how often Apple were reseating RAM in laptops we have no way of really knowing how accurate it is.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#167

Post by greycol »

Pigo wrote: post #105
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #100

Thinking of who wouldn't vote for right to repair I can only come up with: 1. leaders of companies that would be adversely affected by right to repair 2. perhaps employees of same companies but that seems iffy as I doubt the adverse effects would be so great as to threaten employment. 3. People who actually think that although it would be to their benefit to have a right to repair there is an encroachment on a compan…

How does John Deere advocate for their position? Is it about protecting trade secrets or keeping the machines in better condition for possible resale? Or did they just stay quiet because they knew they were in the wrong? Whatever it might be, I'm sure I would disagree with it, but I'd be curious how they try to justify it. Especially when you're talking about farmers, who have an extreme DIY culture.

I know a common line for vehicles was basically: 3rd party parts (and service) can't be guaranteed to be to the same quality as 1st party parts (and service) which can cause extra wear and disruptions to other parts of the vehicle even if they're not immediately apparent. Since we can't control what part 3rd parties use (or level of service) we restrict repair to our licensed repairers (via drm, patents, custom tooling, and/or lack of documentation).

It's somewhat justified in that it theoretically protects customers and the companies reputation.

Personally I don't disagree with this argument but I don't believe it to be sufficient to justify the extra cost and inconvenience to customers over a percentage of poor acting repairers and part suppliers.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#168

Post by magduf »

monocasa wrote: post #145
Pigo wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does John Deere advocate for their position? Is it about protecting trade secrets or keeping the machines in better condition for possible resale? Or did they just stay quiet because they knew they were in the wrong? Whatever it might be, I'm sure I would disagree with it, but I'd be curious how they try to justify it. Especially when you're talking about farmers, who have an extreme DIY culture.

I've seen a few arguments. * That modern tractors are complex enough systems that only official techs should be working on them. * That if they allow third party mods, they can't guarantee regulatory compliance with emissions. * That they have proprietary secrets that would need to be divulged of the systems were more open, and they just wouldn't have bothered in the first place. * That their pricing model is depende…

Those arguments don't work in the automotive market. Modern cars are just as complex, yet anyone is allowed to change their own oil or do anything they want really (though they can get frustrated by anything requiring a proprietary scan tool). And car owners are allowed to mode their cars however they want as long as they don't run afoul of emissions laws (yet many of them do anyway, because enforcement is poor).

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#169

Post by greendude29 »

viklove wrote: post #124
SamWhited wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post may sound flippant and is getting a lot of down votes, but this seems like an interesting discussion to be had. Do we (I am from the U.S.) tend to allow companies to screw us more than other countries? If so is it cultural, or something legal? Is it part of our broader convenience culture? I don't now, but it would be interesting to dig into if anyone can provide evidence for or against this.

It's getting downvotes because it was posted in bad faith. Many Americans would say we give corporations the freedom to act how they wish, and we give individuals the freedom to do business with the corporations they choose. The argument to be had is how much the government needs to watch out for the citizenship, because every "protective" law they pass is a restriction on the aforementioned freedoms. The American sc…

> The argument to be had is how much the government needs to watch out for the citizenship, because every "protective" law they pass is a restriction on the aforementioned freedoms.

This doesn't work. It might in a "history" book that is intentionally written to espouse pride and nationalism in your nation's ideals, but this is not the reality of human beings.

The above __might__ work if all parties worked with good intent, but that's not what corporations are. They need to be governed, otherwise they will infect your government in order to produce a reality that is better for their existence.

This is not theory, it is practical knowledge of the world we live in.

I really really wish the pro-corporate Americans are able to divorce themselves from their fantasy of what corporatism might look like when padded by bullshit about "freedom", as opposed to what it has already done and will continue to do to their government.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#170

Post by [deleted] »

scarface74 wrote: post #147
sangnoir wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have I missed anyone? "Security-minded" folk who insist corporates should have full control of their device via signed code from pre-boot, incidentally preventing "non-authorised" replacement parts from working since repair is an attack vector, allegedly.

Would you trust Joe Random to replace anything in the hardware authentication pipeline? Edit: Replied to the wrong comment...

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