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Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

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Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#161

Post by sujNansnam »

sneak wrote: post #144
typhonic wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 30 years ago I was being asked by some guy I barely knew to do something over the weekend. I didn't know how to tell him that I would rather just be at home with my family. Eventually and without thinking it through, I just said "It's my weekend with the kids." He instantly became apologetic and said he understood completely. And I instantly felt like a heel for pretending to be someone I'm not. I had accidenta…

It’s not your fault that the listener assumed you were divorced; you implied it (accidentally) but did not state it. You were not untruthful-what you said was literally and exactly correct. The assumptions made by a listener as a result of intentionally limited data are not your responsibility in any way, indeed even if you were able to predict them with any reasonable level of accuracy, which you are not. I have an…

You may feel this way, but the society you live in does not.

http://www.glottopedia.org/index.php/Gricean_maxims

I find it unlikely that you really abide by this stated disregard of implicit assumptions - it would make communication impossible. The amount of information required to convey even basic facts is encyclopedic if you and your conversational partner don’t make use of assumptions about what the other already knows.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#162

Post by jarofgreen »

jordansmithnz wrote: post #50

I’ve given thought in the past to some sort of ‘support reputation system’. After calling tech support, they’d rate your manner and how capable you seemed, and this would feed through into your future calls (e.g. calling an ISP with a genuine + very technical question might mean you go straight to the highest tier of tech support next time you call). It would save time for tech support workers too; no need to vet ver…

Pretty sure there someone suing in Britain years ago after getting to see comments about him support agents had left on a company forum. They weren't nice comments. I thought it was Demon internet but I can't find it.

Now I'm remembering accidentally seeing my customer record in a mobile phone shop. I was a "Silver customer". At that point I had been with them for 10 years or something. Silver? What does it take to get Gold??!

Basically, I'm saying if you do this not everyone will be happy.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#163

Post by dqv »

mycall wrote: post #154
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #81

Many of these are equivalent to demanding to speak to the manager in order to get what you want. That can backfire quickly if you’re not careful. > Present as if you are collecting a paper trail. Prominent indicia of this include notebooks, organized files, and repeatedly asking for specific names, dates, and citations for authority “for my notes.” I worked at a smaller company where any semi-threatening support requ…

> However, once the customer threatened us with the note-taking act, we had to be extremely careful about anything that would admit fault, lest they try to use it against us later. That is hardly fair as the whole "this conversation may be recorded for training purposes" puts the caller on edge right from the start. Are they allowed to record the call too? Is that legal? Obviously, the caller should just record the c…

Maybe not in larger organizations, but in smaller ones those recordings really do get used for training purposes. And to verify claims about what agents say. I don't think the intent is to intimidate callers, but to let them know that something an agent says to them can be verified. I know it saved me before when someone claimed I was threatening them and using inappropriate language.

>Is that legal?

For the most part yes.

>Obviously, the caller should just record the call and tell the other side they are doing that. I guess most people don't know how to record calls.

Yes they should. It's even better to take notes on things you miss by listening to the recording.

From experience, though, the people acting like "Dangerous Professionals" are just dangerous to my psychological well-being because it's almost impossible to distinguish them from any run-of-the-mill ass hole.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#164

Post by jarofgreen »

sneak wrote: post #144
typhonic wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 30 years ago I was being asked by some guy I barely knew to do something over the weekend. I didn't know how to tell him that I would rather just be at home with my family. Eventually and without thinking it through, I just said "It's my weekend with the kids." He instantly became apologetic and said he understood completely. And I instantly felt like a heel for pretending to be someone I'm not. I had accidenta…

It’s not your fault that the listener assumed you were divorced; you implied it (accidentally) but did not state it. You were not untruthful-what you said was literally and exactly correct. The assumptions made by a listener as a result of intentionally limited data are not your responsibility in any way, indeed even if you were able to predict them with any reasonable level of accuracy, which you are not. I have an…

Thinking about fault and responsibility is maybe misleading? If I'm trying to communicate a thing to another person and I fail, I've failed. Totally failed. Whether that bothers me or not depends on the context, sometimes it does. And it seems like at those points just saying "Well I made noises, it's the others persons fault they couldn't understand me, nothing to do with me" is an attitude that isn't going to get me far in life. Basically, if you want to achieve your task of "communicate a thing" you HAVE to think about the listener.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#165

Post by jacobush »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #156
sneak wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not your fault that the listener assumed you were divorced; you implied it (accidentally) but did not state it. You were not untruthful-what you said was literally and exactly correct. The assumptions made by a listener as a result of intentionally limited data are not your responsibility in any way, indeed even if you were able to predict them with any reasonable level of accuracy, which you are not. I have an…

> I have an essay pending on this exact topic. We all look forward to reaching a conclusion you didn't intend us to due to our assumptions.

I already made the conclusion!

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#166

Post by monkeycantype »

I have found when speaking to police officers, that they find it soothing if I spell names in the phonetic alphabet (alpha, bravo, charlie) and describe people and events in a structured way, as if I am intending to assist their note taking. (a Caucasian female, approximately five' nine, professional appearance, mid forties, dyed red hair cut shoulder length, in a grey coat driving a silver mercedes convertible ALPHA WHISKY NOVEMBER SEVEN SEVEN NINE')

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#167

Post by techsupporter »

sneak wrote: post #146
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #81

Many of these are equivalent to demanding to speak to the manager in order to get what you want. That can backfire quickly if you’re not careful. > Present as if you are collecting a paper trail. Prominent indicia of this include notebooks, organized files, and repeatedly asking for specific names, dates, and citations for authority “for my notes.” I worked at a smaller company where any semi-threatening support requ…

> Before you try these “Dangerous Professional” tricks, please just try to be a decent human with the front-line support staff. - they aren’t tricks. - making documentation and taking notes is something decent humans do. - only less-than-decent people are threatened by documentation.

As someone who has worked in support and customer-facing roles for a very long time, I am not threatened by documentation. I am threatened by out-of-context quotes, twisting of what I said or wrote, and what someone who is "just taking notes" is implying by that statement.

In my experience, people who play this card have an almost-certain probability of using things like strategic ellipses or partial quotes against me later. Ever been in enterprise support and been hauled into a deposition where you got asked if a partial quote of yours was actually what you said when it technically was but not in that context? It's not fun.

When people pull that stunt on me, I absolutely turn into the most straight-laced automaton you've ever met. You will receive nothing more than the shortest sentences I can construct in the flattest monotone I can muster and I will do nothing more than the barest minimum required because I am not sticking my neck out for your shitty problem if you are angling for a way to throw me under the bus.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#168

Post by sudosteph »

cjslep wrote: post #153
saagarjha wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you pronounce it? Appa-lah-chi-an?

I'm originally from NC but the piedmont region (Charlotte), not the mountains, and would say "Appa-LA-chin". ("La" rhymes with the "a" in "matt") Making the long-a sound ("la"->"lay"), or both long-a and "ch"->"sh", is common from northerners who have (or still are) moving to the city from elsewhere.

Yep, and that's the same pronunciation used in Western NC too (ie, how locals say "Appalachian State" in Boone).

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#169

Post by golergka »

michannne wrote: post #97
nkrisc wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This method works wonders for corporate tech support. They're pretty used to the "my monitor won't turn on (it's not plugged in)" type users so when you try to tell them you know what's wrong, they assume you're there former type and you have no idea what you're talking about. Instead I very clearly tell them the specific symptoms and relevant information that they would look up anyway. Recently I had a corporate ins…

I do support along with my usual dev work and interface with users daily. I can't count the amount of times I've heard "I'm pretty sure it's because of..." followed by something completely unrelated, along with a stubborn resolve to not try the professional's recommended solution

Do you find that developers, system administrators and other IT professionals (the typical HN crowd) are just as guilty of this?

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#170

Post by Aeolun »

notacoward wrote: post #67

I've found that pretending to know someone's profession, or one related to it, is generally a very bad approach. It's easily seen through, at which point you're worse off than before. Instead, what I do with members of other professions is try to impress on them that I do not know their business but respect its complexity and our roles within the scenario. Whether it's a doctor or a plumber or even a computer technic…

> Instead I describe as clearly as possible symptoms, timing/frequency, possibly related changes, things I've tried and results I've gotten, etc.

What do you do if after all this, they still keep circling the problem?

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