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No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

penntoday.upenn.edu

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Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#161

Post by Jolter »

username90 wrote: post #147
BurningFrog wrote: post #127

Another victim in the "replication crisis" bloodbath for psychology. Personally, I'm probably going to wait 5 years before I believe any psychology science claim. Especially if it confirms something I already believe in :)

Testosterone increases blood flow, it could be that the participants taking it got more alert meaning better scores but that testosterone also worsens results for similar alertness levels.

That's just not what the study studied. You can speculate but there is no evidence for that hypothesis in this paper.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#162

Post by Jolter »

glaugh wrote: post #152

Most of the effects of administering testosterone (at least to men with clinically low levels) take weeks or months to appear. For example, interest in sex takes 3+ weeks to increase. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3188848/ And much of the impact of testosterone happens in utero (Young boys and girls have similar levels; behavioral differences are driven by in utero exposure.) This study seems to test a…

So did the previous studies of testosterone exposure, from what I've understood. So, this study still serves perfectly well to debunk them.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#163

Post by PeterStuer »

moosey wrote: post #105

What I'm more interested in seeing is whether or not being in a dominant group in society reduces empathy. Historically, we might have looked at the lack of empathy of specific groups and made assumptions about the group in general, but perhaps it simply has to do with whether or not that group finds itself dominant in society whether it be economically, politically, or socially. All of these groups in Western societ…

Or maybe societies are dominated by overambitious sociopaths, regardless of their gender?

I feel we are long past the 'no true Scotsman' defense of woman in public office on average just exhibiting the same ruthless self-interest as the men they replaced.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#164

Post by learnstats2 »

> “Of course, the primary suspect when we have something that is sharply differentiated by sex is testosterone,” says Gideon Nave, an assistant professor of marketing in Penn’s Wharton School.

Is this a spoof article? Why would a professor of marketing at Wharton be talking on this point? "Of course", this is a nonsense thing to say.

Maybe it needed a marketing expert to get funding for this.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#165

Post by tomp »

lanstin wrote: post #148
djsumdog wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's what's being suggested at here at all. In the past few years, there has been an overemphasis on "maleness" being bad and leading to negative. In a lot of western social history (and even a lot of eastern societies) there has always been the concept of "the divine feminine" (Mother earth, goddesses and so fourth). We've seen the growing emphasis of bad men and toxic masculinity; as if the man has…

Toxic masculinity isn't "being masculine is bad" it's "being so caught up in social stereotypes of supposed masculinity that you become bad." Toxic masculinity vs. healthy masculinity. At least in people that use the phrase seriously that I've interacted with conversationally. Not to dispute that some people think maleness is inherently bad (or that the supposed duality of gender reflects a supposed duality of morali…

This is a typical "motte and bailey" conversational strategy. The reality is, proponents of the idea of "toxic masculinity" provide almost no examples of "healthy masculinity" (or "toxic femininity").

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#166

Post by tastroder »

learnstats2 wrote: post #164

> “Of course, the primary suspect when we have something that is sharply differentiated by sex is testosterone,” says Gideon Nave, an assistant professor of marketing in Penn’s Wharton School. Is this a spoof article? Why would a professor of marketing at Wharton be talking on this point? "Of course", this is a nonsense thing to say. Maybe it needed a marketing expert to get funding for this.

> Is this a spoof article? Why would a professor of marketing at Wharton be talking on this point?

Because he's a co-author of the paper, people in research collaborate, and his publication list doesn't make this topic seem off in any way? Literally clicking on the first instance of the name of the person you're complaining about gives you enough information to make this comment unnecessary.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#167

Post by wsc981 »

another-one-off wrote: post #150
lanstin wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toxic masculinity isn't "being masculine is bad" it's "being so caught up in social stereotypes of supposed masculinity that you become bad." Toxic masculinity vs. healthy masculinity. At least in people that use the phrase seriously that I've interacted with conversationally. Not to dispute that some people think maleness is inherently bad (or that the supposed duality of gender reflects a supposed duality of morali…

I'm struggling to think of any aspects of masculinity that I could safely class as 'healthy' in the current climate. For example, traditionally the view that males should be providers for the family would have been considered a healthy aspect of masculinity. That doesn't go unchallenged any more; for example there is a real concern out there that men are too competitive and effective at securing high paid jobs. It is…

> For example, traditionally the view that males should be providers for the family would have been considered a healthy aspect of masculinity. That doesn't go unchallenged any more; for example there is a real concern out there that men are too competitive and effective at securing high paid jobs.

I wonder if people in Asia and Africa feel the same. Or perhaps even in South-America. To me it seems to be mostly a "Western" issue. I live in Thailand and through the (admittedly limited) news sources I follow (Bangkok Post, South China Morning Post, ThaiVisa) there doesn't seem to be much discussion/concern here on gender, roles, what is and isn't toxic masculinity, etc...

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#169

Post by username90 »

Jolter wrote: post #161
username90 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Testosterone increases blood flow, it could be that the participants taking it got more alert meaning better scores but that testosterone also worsens results for similar alertness levels.

That's just not what the study studied. You can speculate but there is no evidence for that hypothesis in this paper.

I didn't say that this study proved it, I just meant that effects like that could cause the non-linear results reported and mess with studies.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#170

Post by blanche_ »

djsumdog wrote: post #144
tomlock wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's cool is that if people take a more nuanced view of gender and sex than saying it can be measured by one test with only two options, it means they can't take the narrow view that either of those things are binary. Here's hoping!

I don't think that's what's being suggested at here at all. In the past few years, there has been an overemphasis on "maleness" being bad and leading to negative. In a lot of western social history (and even a lot of eastern societies) there has always been the concept of "the divine feminine" (Mother earth, goddesses and so fourth). We've seen the growing emphasis of bad men and toxic masculinity; as if the man has…

Most of things taken to an extreme get toxic and there is such thing as toxic femininity. There is the divine feminine, but please do not forget that most of the deities or gods were actually male. To me what you're saying seems like a big over generalization.
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