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My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

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Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#161

Post by darawk »

ivanhoe wrote: post #32
darawk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a lot different. It's easy to memorize a few answers. It's hard to memorize the entire corpus of material, in ignorance of what might be on the test. Yes, educational opportunities were unequal at the time. No, that does not make this a good way to equalize them.

I don't remember hearing that IBM suffered a huge losses (or any) as a result of this, so could it then be that it wasn't such a big deal? There's so many variables at play when hiring it's just silly to presume that 100% perfect fairness in tests is of any huge significance to "fairness" of outcome or to maximizing the benefits for a company, especially when compared to the things like racial or other purely persona…

> I don't remember hearing that IBM suffered a huge losses (or any) as a result of this, so could it then be that it wasn't such a big deal?

That is a pretty silly argument that you wouldn't make in any other context. For instance, I also don't recall hearing that IBM suffered huge losses as a result of rampant discrimination. But that doesn't mean that they should do it.

> There's so many variables at play when hiring it's just silly to presume that 100% perfect fairness in tests is of any huge significance to "fairness" of outcome or to maximizing the benefits for a company, especially when compared to the things like racial or other purely personal biases.

I don't recall making that assumption. However, it's clear that any benefit the test may have had in selecting candidates is completely subverted by giving them the answers. And it's certainly not up to this guy to make that decision.

> The idea of "keeping the bar high" is too idealized, as tests and interviews even today just measure how prepared is that person for taking the tests, and not the real world knowledge and abilities. Ultimately what company really cares about is estimating the future performance of that employee, not just the knowledge. People who had to fight hard for a chance to work will often be much better hire and work harder and do more for the company, than someone a little more knowledgeable, but who lacks that kind of drive.

That may well be true. And when you create your own IBM, you can apply whatever candidate selection method you like. Maybe your method will be so good that your company will outperform all the others. However, IBM has their method and it is not the right of some random engineer to subvert that process for their own personal reasons.

Secondly, while it's true that "IQ like" puzzle tests may not be a good method of filtering candidates, it is not the case that knowledge tests have no value. For an engineering job, there is absolutely a minimum knowledge bar you need to pass to be effective. If you can't code FizzBuzz, you probably don't belong in an engineering role, basically anywhere. We don't know which type of test these were. Or at least, I don't.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#162

Post by somberi »

goog-anon wrote: post #138
handlegoeshere wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When using Asian here, are you referring to Indians or Chinese? As a black engineer, I have also experienced the same discrimination from Indians.

Both. But I'd definitely give the edge to Indians. My historical pass rate for Indian interviewers is dismal, like 2/25 (going back to when I was 16 y/o applying at KFC). I've had slightly better success with East asians. We talk about 'institutionalized' racism here in the US, but racism/discrimination is institutionalized in Indian culture and religions, and that's sadly not going away. I wish there was a tactful w…

Indian here. I am sorry that you had been treated unfairly by anyone at all, and particularly by Indians.

For an iota of what it is worth, I _genuinely_ am happy to see black candidates. If anything I have a heightened sense of fairness and post interview I offer to spend extended time to attune them to the next interview rounds. In case I do happen to reject the candidate, I offer to write elaborate review from my notes (I take a lot of notes) with the hope it helps the candidate. Again, sorry.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#163

Post by pbhjpbhj »

kls wrote: post #67
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>'That being said, had someone of my same race had not choose me over the more qualified candidate I would not be where I am today', // That's clearly unfair. The insinuation is that only non-black people can achieve the best qualifications, which seems exceedingly offensive. What was your intended take-away -- surely not "nepotism/racism are fine if you're black [in USA]"?

I believe the insinuation per the CEO was that even if they where equally qualified that the overwhelming representation of white candidates would cancel out their chance. He is not a bad man, he is a caring and very compassionate man, who believed he was doing good for a fellow human. It was as eye opening to him, when we talked about it and he came to the realization that he was guilty of the same discrimination th…

>if they where equally qualified that the overwhelming representation of white candidates would cancel out their chance //

I don't think you understand probability, they would each have equal chance. Isn't that the goal? If course there would be less chance of a "black American" occupying the role, but that would be for exactly the right reason, lower representation in the population from which one is selecting.

>we as white people rarely experience said butt hurt //

Is this perhaps simply down to expectation. The "it's because I is black" meme: if you're a minority in a particular physical characteristic and fail to achieve a role you assume discrimination. The corollary is that whilst discrimination might not be felt emotionally is still unfair to discriminate against a person based on the colour of their skin.

You're right about empathy, but empathy with those suffering racist discrimination is a strange place to decide to be racist.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#164

Post by pbhjpbhj »

kls wrote: post #93
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>'That being said, had someone of my same race had not choose me over the more qualified candidate I would not be where I am today', // That's clearly unfair. The insinuation is that only non-black people can achieve the best qualifications, which seems exceedingly offensive. What was your intended take-away -- surely not "nepotism/racism are fine if you're black [in USA]"?

Sorry you got down-voted your comment was very valid to the discussion. I agree, it was unfair but the value of the lesson was worth far more than the slight loss of opportunity for me. That is the thing, because I had built a name for myself, it was of little consequence that I lost this opportunity, but it was a life changer for the CTO that was selected because he had never been afforded the opportunities that I h…

For sure, other people are using nepotism to get ahead, that's great for that one guy. But, as a point of learning I don't see how this leads to anything but more racism and my opinion is that we can't stop racism/sexism by being racist and sexist in a different way. There is a problem that this leads to a slow change; hence questioning this to explore possibilities.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#165

Post by ivanhoe »

darawk wrote: post #160
smt88 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume they were unqualified? We already know IBM failed to hire qualified black engineers because they were black. This may well have been cases of qualified people working around a corrupt system. The first black IBM engineer isn't going to want new black hires to be incompetent -- quite the opposite. He likely did his own screening.

> Why do you assume they were unqualified? Because the point of being given the answers is to meet qualifications that you don't actually possess.

Or to help you to outperform everyone by such a large margin that racist don't have an excuse not to hire you for being black?

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#166

Post by goog-anon »

smt88 wrote: post #147
goog-anon wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This problem gets written about every other month in the media. While revealing the details of my observations and experiences might be interesting, it's definitely not whistleblower material.

Your claim that the interviewers wouldn't pass black applicants "under any circumstances" is much stronger than any media report I've ever seen. Were you exaggerating?

> Were you exaggerating?

Only slightly. Very strong candidates will more than likely get a pass, but those are exceedingly rare and haven't seen one yet tbh. It's the majority who are genuinely borderline/just above average who will never get a pass/given benefit of the doubt that are given to others.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#167

Post by kamaal »

tdurden wrote: post #51

> Somehow, he managed to obtain copies of the IBM entrance examination questions and answers, which he surreptitiously shared with promising young black job applicants. He coached them on passing the exam and succeeding in their interviews. Many were subsequently hired. I guess this is considered ok?

If leet code and your dozen other interview training companies today are ok, this is just perfectly fine.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#168

Post by SolaceQuantum »

cameronbrown wrote: post #65
bsanr wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that difficult to believe, if you're being intellectually honest.

To be honest, I'm just not used to living in a place with ethnic division along geographic boundaries. It may exist, but I've not personally seen it so yea, it's hard to imagine. Not saying it doesn't exist, but you asked the question to me personally.

Ah well, it’s a significant problem in many parts of America. Pretty much every metropolitan area has ethnic segregation to some extent among geological lines. This is due to a variety of factors- white flight, a long history of oppression and a fairly recent desegregation movement, towns where black people weren’t allowed to stay the night, generational discrepancies exaggerating existing effects, etc.

It’s fairly normal for there to be a wide variety of reasons why specific areas are predominantly one or another ethnicity.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#169

Post by [deleted] »

goog-anon wrote: post #79
goldcd wrote: post #8

I was happily nodding along, until I got to: "Somehow, he managed to obtain copies of the IBM entrance examination questions and answers, which he surreptitiously shared with promising young black job applicants. He coached them on passing the exam and succeeding in their interviews. Many were subsequently hired." I'm sure this helped contribute to an increase in black hires, but is a stupidly short-sighted thing to…

Black engineer here at a FANG. I do this all the time with black candidates who interview. In fact I use my round to coach them on the upcoming rounds and give them stellar feedback afterward. I know many would think this is ethically egregious, but it is only balancing the unbelievable prejudice against them by Asian interviewers who would not pass a black candidate under any circumstance.

[deleted]

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#170

Post by ados123 »

goog-anon wrote: post #79
goldcd wrote: post #8

I was happily nodding along, until I got to: "Somehow, he managed to obtain copies of the IBM entrance examination questions and answers, which he surreptitiously shared with promising young black job applicants. He coached them on passing the exam and succeeding in their interviews. Many were subsequently hired." I'm sure this helped contribute to an increase in black hires, but is a stupidly short-sighted thing to…

Black engineer here at a FANG. I do this all the time with black candidates who interview. In fact I use my round to coach them on the upcoming rounds and give them stellar feedback afterward. I know many would think this is ethically egregious, but it is only balancing the unbelievable prejudice against them by Asian interviewers who would not pass a black candidate under any circumstance.

Interviewed at multiple faang. You are 100% correct about Asians. They are extremely biased and discriminatory towards black candidates. Especially engineers. They hold the bar much higher for black candidates. They purposely ask harder and more abstract questions. Especially when it comes to coding. Ive seen this and experienced it myself as an engineer manager. Let's not even get into how they coach each other for interviews. If it was up to them there would bo ZERO black engineers in tech. Call out the unfair practices. They are definitely there.
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