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Python Is Eating the World

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Re: Python Is Eating the World

#161

Post by teddyh »

KirinDave wrote: post #121
lacampbell wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every moment working with python (and that infernal pep-8 linter insisting 80 characters is a sensible standard in 2019) It's a very sensible standard. There's a reason most books are taller than they are wide. The fact that we have bigger screens now doesn't change it.

This is about as sensible to me as saying it is a good idea because most trains are longer than they are wide. Who cares about those things, we use computers that nearly all have 4:3 or 16:~10 displays (or wider), and many of use use more than one of them.

Display size has nothing to do with it. Long lines are hard to read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_length

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#162

Post by sien »

simula67 wrote: post #95

In my opinion, the biggest problem facing Python is still concurrency. The mitigation efforts still look to me like Perl's 'bolted on' implementation of object orientation. Python should have gotten rid of the GIL during the 2 to 3 transition. It may have also been an opportune moment to introduce optional typing and maybe even optional manual memory management, making it useful to develop almost all kinds of softwar…

Now there is Julia that has concurrency.

Julia, because it's much newer also seems to have dependency management built in as well.

Surely a lot of people who write numerical software are going to either look at or switch to Julia for these reasons.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#163

Post by j88439h84 »

KirinDave wrote: post #93

Reading this got me thinking and I wonder if other people feel like me about this, so I'm going to share it. This is not serious, but not entirely unserious... I try to be a good sport about it, but every time I write python I want to quit software engineering. It makes me angry how little it values my time. It does little for my soured disposition that folks then vehemently lecture me about the hours saved by future…

Stop using flake8. The original PEP 8 document doesn't even recommend 80 characters anymore.

Pylint and mypy and black are way more useful.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#164

Post by futureastronaut »

KirinDave wrote: post #158
futureastronaut wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't like how its list comprehensions aren't generic. Python iteration is generic. https://docs.python.org/3/reference/datamodel.html#object.__... Please don't spread FUD.

I'm thinking of generic in the sense of monadcomprehensions, sorry. > That's an implementation detail of CPython. I don't see how it's important for a language user either. Jython uses Java objects. PyPy uses RPython. This strengthens my point though? > Please don't spread FUD. This is that culture thing I'm talking about.

I'm not really sure what your point is in criticizing "farming" to C.

> This is that culture thing I'm talking about.

You made a false claim. You referred to Python iteration as not generic, when what you really meant is that Python lacks first class monad support.

If you want a monadic programming model, you're not going to be a happy camper in the Python world. But I doubt that comes as a surprise.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#165

Post by hyperion2010 »

KirinDave wrote: post #93

Reading this got me thinking and I wonder if other people feel like me about this, so I'm going to share it. This is not serious, but not entirely unserious... I try to be a good sport about it, but every time I write python I want to quit software engineering. It makes me angry how little it values my time. It does little for my soured disposition that folks then vehemently lecture me about the hours saved by future…

I am about to hit a decade of python experience. I work with it daily, all my major codebases are written in it.

I hate it.

It has an ok object system which is possibly its only redeeming quality. I found Racket about 4 years ago, and any new project that I work on will be in Racket or CL.

I could go on at length about the happy path mentality of python and the apologists who are too ignorant of other people's use cases to acknowledge that maybe there might be some shortcomings.

The syntactic affordances are awful and you can footgun yourself in stupidily simple ways when refactoring code between scopes. Python isn't really one language it is more like 4, one for each scope and type of assignment or argument passing, and all the sytactic sugar just makes it worse.

Not to mention that packaging is still braindead. I actually learned the Gentoo ebuild system because pip was so unspeakably awful the moment you stepped away from the happy path.

Blub blub blub, someone help I'm drowning in mediocrity.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#166

Post by mozey »

KirinDave wrote: post #121
lacampbell wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every moment working with python (and that infernal pep-8 linter insisting 80 characters is a sensible standard in 2019) It's a very sensible standard. There's a reason most books are taller than they are wide. The fact that we have bigger screens now doesn't change it.

This is about as sensible to me as saying it is a good idea because most trains are longer than they are wide. Who cares about those things, we use computers that nearly all have 4:3 or 16:~10 displays (or wider), and many of use use more than one of them.

Are you implying short and wide trains would be sensible? I like using a wide screen for programming, but prefer code formatted to 80 chars. That allows me to have two vertical windows of code open side by side. It also makes it easier to use things like a graphical diff to merge code.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#167

Post by j88439h84 »

sosodev wrote: post #83
blaisio wrote: post #33

Python has a lot of problems that really slow down development, but they are all fixable. The biggest issue, in my opinion, is in dependency management. Python has a horrible dependency management system, from top-to-bottom. Why do I need to make a "virtual environment" to have separate dependencies, and then source it my shell? Why do I need to manually add version numbers to a file? Why isn't there any builtin way…

Pipenv has felt to me like a pretty solid solution. It's not perfect but it's a lot better than the other options.

It is not as good as Poetry.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#168

Post by johnydepp »

DonHopkins wrote: post #159

It's so refreshing to not see anyone here whining about Python forcing them to indent their code properly. The kind of people who think that's a PROBLEM instead of a FEATURE really should not be ever writing any new code, and instead should be punished by forcing them to maintain other people's code written with that same lazy misguided attitude, until they recognize how self indulgent, inconsiderate, and disrespectf…

And by mentioning it your ruined the pleasant reading.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#169

Post by mikorym »

KirinDave wrote: post #93

Reading this got me thinking and I wonder if other people feel like me about this, so I'm going to share it. This is not serious, but not entirely unserious... I try to be a good sport about it, but every time I write python I want to quit software engineering. It makes me angry how little it values my time. It does little for my soured disposition that folks then vehemently lecture me about the hours saved by future…

Do you think this is at least partly due to one usually being frustrated by your "official" work? Or would you prefer something like Java?

I can imagine other people's code in Python frustrating myself, but if it is only my own code base then Python is a rewarding language for me.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#170

Post by PikachuEXE »

jbverschoor wrote: post #104
ajmurmann wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust's cargo, JS's yarn and the grand daddy of them all Ruby's bundler address all these issues. Even newer versions of Gradle support a workflow where you specify the versions you know you want and just on everything else, including transitive dependencies, down.

Yeah.. not sure why the love for Ruby faded in startup-world

I think many people still "love" ruby I never liked Python from day 1 of my work (I am Ruby on Rails Dev for my job)

Wish there are more useful projects written in ruby :)

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