Apple Is Locking iPhone Batteries to Discourage Repair • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Is Locking iPhone Batteries to Discourage Repair

#161

Post by 14 » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 10:17 PM UTC

rgovostes wrote: post #154

14 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I bought a second hand phone off some guy who does phone repairs in my area. Didn't realize the fingerprint reader did not work until a few days later as I had never owned a phone that new that had one and did not know it was supposed to work. When I looked on the internet it seemed that the reason was the home button was swapped out but without taking the chip that ties it to the phone with it from the old but…

To phrase this another way: a third party made some modification to the biometrics sensor that is used to control access to your private data, including all of your device’s encryption keys, stored passwords, and payment information. The phone detected this tampering and disabled the compromised component. And you are disappointed that the part has been “locked down”.

That is not how I would rephrase it. And that is simply not true what you claim. Simply replacing the fingerprint scanner does not allow any access. The moment the phone is off the phone will require a password entered manually. Unless you suggest an actor can replace a home button all while not powering down the phone and I suppose that is possible but that to me would seem state level actor and they probably have other ways. So no there doesn’t seem to be a threat to my data if the fingerprint sensor is replaced. It would still require my password upon restart and if I failed to provide it at that point then sure good move Apple. The fact is they know they can force people like me, or people who’s home button is actually broken into their store if they want that magic button. Don’t kid yourself that they are doing this in the name of my security. But thank you for actually commenting I wish more people here on HN would justify their down votes with some conversation on the subjects. Edit: I realize that perhaps someone could swap the button without my knowledge and upon me restarting it I would enter my password and the phone is compromised. But in all honesty who falls under that threat model? Apple simply could notify you of the change and allow you to accept the risk. That’s all it would take.

Re: Apple Is Locking iPhone Batteries to Discourage Repair

#162

Post by AnthonyMouse » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

privateSFacct wrote: post #109

Despite all the HN comments, Apple's made an absolute killing and charges FAR FAR higher margins for their products in part because they design them so normal people don't get totally f'd over. And yes, the scam of a trash after market battery to make the iphone battery life look good is well known. And guess how many parents and grandparents then go to apple to "fix" something that has nothing to do with Apple? The…

> People can't figure out why apple can charge such ridiculous premiums on what is otherwise a commodity product. This is why.

It's why they can charge such a premium for commodity batteries -- which is the problem.

> From applecare to the activation lock to app permissions to alerting user to bogus behavior to app store quality to reversible charging cables - all the activities HN considers "anti-consumer" have helped make consumers value apple products.

Let's apply this logic to history. Suppose Microsoft makes it so that Office doesn't run on anything but Windows and Windows won't run any office suites other than Microsoft Office.

Now you argue that Microsoft is doing their customers a great favor -- they can make sure nobody sells them a computer with some off-brand office suite that can't read their documents. But it's pretty clear what the problem with that argument is at this point, right? People should be able to make that choice for themselves. Corel shouldn't be able to call their office suite Microsoft Office, but it should still be possible to use it with Microsoft Windows when people are informed of what they're actually getting.

And then, does the fact that Windows and Office are tied together cause more people to buy them? Maybe, but not in the good way where people like it. In the anti-competitive way where you need Windows and some office suite and you choose Microsoft Office only because none of the others can run on Windows and the choice is forced on you.

Re: Apple Is Locking iPhone Batteries to Discourage Repair

#163

Post by Zak » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

privateSFacct wrote: post #109

Despite all the HN comments, Apple's made an absolute killing and charges FAR FAR higher margins for their products in part because they design them so normal people don't get totally f'd over. And yes, the scam of a trash after market battery to make the iphone battery life look good is well known. And guess how many parents and grandparents then go to apple to "fix" something that has nothing to do with Apple? The…

I'm no fan of Apple's domineering attitude, and repairability is very important to me. If I have broken or worn out hardware not covered by a warranty, I will always attempt to repair it myself, and I usually research repairability before making any significant purchases. I don't own any modern Apple hardware.

That said, I think this mostly OK as long as Apple doesn't actually try to prevent replacement batteries from working. They could probably do a bit better with the messaging here, letting the user know there's not necessarily a problem, just that the provenance and quality of the battery can't be verified.

Re: Apple Is Locking iPhone Batteries to Discourage Repair

#164

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 10:25 PM UTC

e40 wrote: post #144

chmod775 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hassle of doing it on an Android phone? I pop open the back and put in a different battery. No tools required. And it's even got a decent water proving rating.

I've been on Android since the OG Droid, and I can't remember the last time I had a replaceable battery. 4-5 years or more.

The hermetically sealed glass and aluminum phones don't usually let you do it but more sensible plastic bodied phones often still do.

Re: Apple Is Locking iPhone Batteries to Discourage Repair

#165

Post by teej » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 10:27 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #158

privateSFacct wrote: post #109

Despite all the HN comments, Apple's made an absolute killing and charges FAR FAR higher margins for their products in part because they design them so normal people don't get totally f'd over. And yes, the scam of a trash after market battery to make the iphone battery life look good is well known. And guess how many parents and grandparents then go to apple to "fix" something that has nothing to do with Apple? The…

Apple doesn't want their customers to get f'd over you say? You might want to check out Luis Rosmann's videos, a famous Apple repair geek who fixes for cheap the products Apple themselves misdiagnose[1] in order to rip off their customers[2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7RXJP4mxCc // teenager's MacBook's display is not working correctly so Geniuses tell him he needs a new motherboard replacement while Luis d…

Nothing in your sources indicate there's intention in Apple driving folks towards these repairs. Geniuses don't work on commission, they have zero incentive to tell people to fix things they dont need to. I think this is a Hanlon's razor situation where you're assuming Apple is malicious when really it's just lack of knowledge on behalf of some Geniuses.

Re: Apple Is Locking iPhone Batteries to Discourage Repair

#166

Post by raverbashing » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 10:27 PM UTC

chmod775 wrote: post #142

privateSFacct wrote: post #109

Despite all the HN comments, Apple's made an absolute killing and charges FAR FAR higher margins for their products in part because they design them so normal people don't get totally f'd over. And yes, the scam of a trash after market battery to make the iphone battery life look good is well known. And guess how many parents and grandparents then go to apple to "fix" something that has nothing to do with Apple? The…

Hassle of doing it on an Android phone? I pop open the back and put in a different battery. No tools required. And it's even got a decent water proving rating.

It's hit or miss.

Some, while non user replaceable, are very easy. Others require you to take the phone almost entirely apart to replace it

Re: Apple Is Locking iPhone Batteries to Discourage Repair

#167

Post by etaioinshrdlu » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 10:29 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #158

privateSFacct wrote: post #109

Despite all the HN comments, Apple's made an absolute killing and charges FAR FAR higher margins for their products in part because they design them so normal people don't get totally f'd over. And yes, the scam of a trash after market battery to make the iphone battery life look good is well known. And guess how many parents and grandparents then go to apple to "fix" something that has nothing to do with Apple? The…

Apple doesn't want their customers to get f'd over you say? You might want to check out Luis Rosmann's videos, a famous Apple repair geek who fixes for cheap the products Apple themselves misdiagnose[1] in order to rip off their customers[2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7RXJP4mxCc // teenager's MacBook's display is not working correctly so Geniuses tell him he needs a new motherboard replacement while Luis d…

It might be that Apple is not able to apply the same attention to detail that Luis applies to every case.

Luis complains that he can't find competent board level repair technicians to scale his business. The real problem is that it's a difficult expensive skill. Luis can't scale it, Apple can't scale it at a reasonable price either.

Human attention is expensive, that's the reason software is eating the world. Part of that means paying less attention to individual user's products when it requires less human attention to just replace parts in mass.

My 2 cents.

Re: Apple Is Locking iPhone Batteries to Discourage Repair

#168

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 10:29 PM UTC

aejnsn wrote: post #101

vesrah wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you got downvoted, but this is true. When you replace the battery in a new-ish BMW you need to recode/register the battery since BMW changes the way it charges the battery based on age and type.

I'm not sure myself. I am attempting to contrast one premium consumer product with another based on expectations. I think iFixIt and others knowingly sensationalize this stuff without looking for parallels elsewhere. In the BMW community, we justify technical reasoning behind the battery coding of our automobiles' features, but apparently phones, with their comparable levels of complexity, are supposed to use AAA bat…

There are already COTS ICs for monitoring rechargeable batteries. These used to be built into laptop batteries when they were removable and swappable. Nothing prevents a phone manufacture from integrating the same into a removable battery to keep track of aging.

Re: Apple Is Locking iPhone Batteries to Discourage Repair

#169

Post by jrnichols » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 10:30 PM UTC

I'm on the fence about this. On one hand, I can agree with the folks that are unhappy about Apple locking out small retailers. On the other hand, I can see how Apple would want to protect its image. In my personal experience, I've had a few friends have their batteries replaced at kiosks in the mall and have experienced issues. Do they blame the random vendor in the mall? Nope, they blame Apple and have decided "the iPhone sucks."

Third party battery replacements aren't even that much of a savings over having Apple do it.

https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/battery-power

$49 for the "iPhone SE, iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, iPhone 6s, iPhone 6s Plus, iPhone 7, iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8, iPhone 8 Plus, and all other eligible models." Those are the ones that now have batteries that are probably wearing down more.

You have to go to an Apple Authorized Service Provider to have the replacement done. But guess what? Best Buy locations are now AASPs as well and they can do it.

I'm ok with that.

Re: Apple Is Locking iPhone Batteries to Discourage Repair

#170

Post by rgovostes » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 10:30 PM UTC

14 wrote: post #161

rgovostes wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To phrase this another way: a third party made some modification to the biometrics sensor that is used to control access to your private data, including all of your device’s encryption keys, stored passwords, and payment information. The phone detected this tampering and disabled the compromised component. And you are disappointed that the part has been “locked down”.

That is not how I would rephrase it. And that is simply not true what you claim. Simply replacing the fingerprint scanner does not allow any access. The moment the phone is off the phone will require a password entered manually. Unless you suggest an actor can replace a home button all while not powering down the phone and I suppose that is possible but that to me would seem state level actor and they probably have o…

One possible attack would be to replace the sensor with one that records the fingerprint the next time you authenticate. And then in the future it could “replay” the fingerprint image to the SEP (secure coprocessor).

If it were really Apple’s intention to prevent you from servicing your device, would they only disable the Touch ID sensor? Why wouldn’t they make the whole device inoperable, rather than make you suffer a minor inconvenience by having to use a passcode?

The less exciting answer is that the sensor was designed to certain security parameters and modifying it invalidates those. Yes, the threat model includes nation-state actors. Disabling the sensor preserves system security; designing for a potentially adversarial sensor is difficult and increases risk.