Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China • Hacker News Board

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#161

Post by dang » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

benjaminbrodie wrote: post #149

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. So what? That does not make censorship morally acceptable. This would be the same as saying that using slave labor is ok, if you do it in a country that already accepts slavery anyway, and you are treating you slaves better. > And by surfacing better information for queries, it ca…

Your entire speech pattern is positively comical. This is the thing with democracy: it produces individuals who like to "shine" in conversation, rewards rhetoric and theatrics at the expense of reason. It should be kept in mind that democracy originally didn't mean "rule by the people". It meant rule by demos, ie common people. "There is no democracy in physics. We can't say that some second-rate guy has as much righ…

It's not ok to cross into personal attack here, regardless of how annoying you find a comment. If we all did that, that's all we'd do.

It's also not ok to take threads on generic ideological tangents, because those have all been repeated so often as to have become predictable, and lead to boring discussions if not flamewars.

Would you mind reviewing the HN guidelines and taking the spirit of this site to heart when commenting here? We're trying for something a bit better than internet default.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#162

Post by GrapeDrape » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:36 PM UTC

And still, not a single fucking clue what the fuck this stupid fucking garbage code name was even supposed to be. Fuck you. Dream up some actual news.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#163

Post by zhenjier » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #109

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

> Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. So what? That does not make censorship morally acceptable. This would be the same as saying that using slave labor is ok, if you do it in a country that already accepts slavery anyway, and you are treating you slaves better. > And by surfacing better information for queries, it ca…

As a Chinese, educated in US(otherwise you may say I'm brain washed heh). Your comment disgusts me. Western value is not global value, what you see wrong is not absolutely wrong elsewhere. Even if the West is the current domination power in the world it doesn't give it the right to push its value onto other civilizations. So let me ask you this, how arrogant and ignorant is it for you to tell us what is right and wrong given the huge difference of culture background???

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#164

Post by ajiang » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:39 PM UTC

ctime wrote: post #115

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

Enabling censorship and oppression should not be a race to the bottom - which is what you are advocating for. I don't understand how any search engine approved in China could be "surfacing better information in queries" - they are all effectively under the same authoritative control. Are you placing your believe in hopes and prayers that real information will be "accidentally" leaked to the oppressed masses in China?…

You can make your same point without being dismissive.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#165

Post by educationdata » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

Anybody realize how pathetic it is to have this comment on the top on this website?

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#166

Post by inferiorhuman » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

khc wrote: post #128

whatshisface wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that Google would act as a mole, implementing the censorship in bad faith. Why wouldn't they advance the state of the art for censorship, making it even more effective in an attempt to please the Chinese government? In fact, if China is allowing them in, the party must have some reason to believe the second one will come to pass instead of the first.

They could. Do you know that's the case? China allows a lot of foreign investments and to think that the only reason is to further their censorship is silly.

They could. Do you know that's the case? China allows a lot of foreign investments and to think that the only reason is to further their censorship is silly.

And to think that Google would never submit to Chinese censorship in earnest is naive. Yahoo![1], Google, Microsoft, Cisco, AOL, Skype, and Nortel all willingly partook in aiding the censorship apparatus. Yahoo! even went so far as to out journalists and political targets for the Chinese government. Why wouldn't Google do the same?

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Yahoo!#Work_in_th...

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#167

Post by matz1 » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:45 PM UTC

sorokod wrote: post #159

matz1 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Morality is relative, to them it maybe very well be the moral thing to do. >This one can be employed to justify any arbitrary measure applied by any arbitrary authority at any arbitrary point in time Yes it can but you don't have to agree with it

You say that "to them it maybe very well be the moral thing to do", is that actually the case?

Its impossible to really know because I'm not them thus I say maybe, but it certainly possible that they think is the moral thing to do right ?

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#168

Post by chocolatebunny » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:45 PM UTC

TearsInTheRain wrote: post #148

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

This is a weak argument. The base response to a repressive totalitarian regime is non-cooperation, not support them and hope they will be marginally less oppressive. Any support legitimizes their actions and further entrenches their oppression

Isn't that the kind of policy that creates places like North Korea?

And we're already heavily tied to china's economy why would forcing just one company to not cooperate help deligitimize their government?

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#169

Post by tgragnato » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:45 PM UTC

baby wrote: post #142

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. So what? That does not make censorship morally acceptable. This would be the same as saying that using slave labor is ok, if you do it in a country that already accepts slavery anyway, and you are treating you slaves better. > And by surfacing better information for queries, it ca…

Your problem is that you're seeing this issue as black and white, which never does good.

Hundreds of millions of people are "negatively affected" by their government and a concerned human being appealed to compassion. Realists can acknowledge that countries and companies will negotiate according to their own self-interest.

Google is right in sustaining that it's up to Chinese citizens to uphold said government to standards (whatever they will be): it's a technology company that wanted an access to the Chinese market, not a charity working for the good of foreign people. That's extremely practical, not something that's on a scale of black and white.

When employees define Dragonfly internals as disturbing I'm prone to honestly think that it wouldn't have helped in finding censored material. Smells like something management would say to justify a money-driven decision. Looking for a gray scale in choices like these is a distraction.

See no evil - Hear no evil - Speak no evil - Accept moral ambiguity

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#170

Post by devoply » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:46 PM UTC

gurkendoktor wrote: post #112

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

If Google had more business in China, the CCP could blackmail them into censoring their results in other countries as well. Just look at how the CCP bullied international airlines about Taiwan, the laws being awfully vague hasn't helped one bit. Letting the CCP export its censorship back into the West in the hopes that Google will improve life in China is a hell of a gamble.

Yes exactly until CCP reforms itself there is no point in deepening business relationships which we know will lead to more censorship against what are mostly unjust, inhumane, undemocratic policies of the CCP. Mostly to protect the party and its chosen form of governance which has been rejected by most of the rest of the world.