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Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

nytimes.com

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Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#161

Post by bsder »

ttcbj wrote: post #73

My Dad owns a construction company in a highly unionized region. He is an advocate for unions, although he acknowledges that quality varies among them. That said, many of the conditions where unions are beneficial don't seem to apply in tech: * Vocational training: unions in our area run schools to train craftsman (e.g. carpenters). This increases productivity and screens for quality. * Shifting workforce: Constructi…

> Unions don't work as well when productivity/value varies greatly between workers.

I'm not sure I agree with this, but I'm not even sure I concede that programmers have that large a differential.

I still have yet to see genuine scientific evidence that this differential exists in programming.

Or, alternatively, I don't concede that there isn't a 10x difference in master vs apprentice carpenters.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#162

Post by kiliantics »

ap3 wrote: post #147
ttcbj wrote: post #73

My Dad owns a construction company in a highly unionized region. He is an advocate for unions, although he acknowledges that quality varies among them. That said, many of the conditions where unions are beneficial don't seem to apply in tech: * Vocational training: unions in our area run schools to train craftsman (e.g. carpenters). This increases productivity and screens for quality. * Shifting workforce: Constructi…

Unions & guilds also serve to keep other workers out There are laws that work has to be assigned to union shops, etc

This is like copyleft software licencing. The point being that it is meant to encourage more unions and discourage exploitative labour practices.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#163

Post by _qwfv »

dymk wrote: post #93
Pfhreak wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If I'm not happy with my company, I leave the company. This presupposes that you'll have a list of companies to join that have all the benefits that you want. > Non-competes are unenforceable in California. Great. Tech work happens nationwide. You could say, "I got mine in California" or you could help pull up others. I believe that it's worthwhile, sometimes, for me to spend some of my income to help others reach a…

> This presupposes that you'll have a list of companies to join that have all the benefits that you want. Does anyone, anywhere, have a list of companies that checks literally all their boxes ? > I believe that it's worthwhile, sometimes, for me to spend some of my income to help others reach a better station. Again, I don't think that software engineering is in a position that needs unionizing. This argument is nil…

> You're asking me to spend my income for something I don't see as a net gain.

Ok, that's fine. Depending on your reasoning a bit myopic/solipsistic/sociopathic, perhaps, but I recognize this is a widely held position that I happen to disagree with.

> You've suddenly moved the goalposts to be about something other than software engineers, which is not what we were talking about.

You are right, you said software engineers. But the article discusses tech workers.

There's a whole universe of sys-admins, SREs, technical writers, TPMs, QA folks, programmer analysts, devops folks, etc. who are essential to writing and shipping systems at scale who don't call themselves "software engineers".

Even if you don't think it's morally right to do so, isn't it in your self interest to ensure those people are as productive, well trained, and happy as possible so less of their work lands on your plate?

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#164

Post by Apocryphon »

dymk wrote: post #93
Pfhreak wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If I'm not happy with my company, I leave the company. This presupposes that you'll have a list of companies to join that have all the benefits that you want. > Non-competes are unenforceable in California. Great. Tech work happens nationwide. You could say, "I got mine in California" or you could help pull up others. I believe that it's worthwhile, sometimes, for me to spend some of my income to help others reach a…

> This presupposes that you'll have a list of companies to join that have all the benefits that you want. Does anyone, anywhere, have a list of companies that checks literally all their boxes ? > I believe that it's worthwhile, sometimes, for me to spend some of my income to help others reach a better station. Again, I don't think that software engineering is in a position that needs unionizing. This argument is nil…

> You're asking me to spend my income for something I don't see as a net gain.

Less than $100 a month to have an organization fight open floor plans and to provide legal services on your behalf for when HR fails you seems like a small price to pay.

> I don't see my profession as benefiting

Say you're working in the game industry, and management keeps on slashing the QA org. Enjoy the additional stress of having to write all of the automation tests yourself on top of fiendish deadlines when you're already working 50 hour weeks with unpaid overtime.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#165

Post by blub »

noego wrote: post #26

This is going to be a unpopular opinion. I think a tech union would likely be good for the average tech worker - and bad for absolutely everyone else, broader society included. Cartels and price-fixing agreements are extremely lucrative, which is why they were commonplace until outlawed by antitrust legislation, and why cartels like OPEC still operate today. Unions and collective bargaining are no different. Unions a…

The only parties that I'm aware of which are forming cartels (and getting slapped on the wrist for it) are American software companies. Seems odd to accuse not yet existing entities of the same crime that their opponents have been already convicted for.

Furthermore, a lot of software companies are filthy rich. If anything, American corporations are squeezing the last drops of profit through creative (read borderline criminal) accounting, outsourcing, faux-contracting and other creative arrangements. Said additional profit is not shared with the employees, invested in society or used in any productive way.

How is it benefiting anyone that Apple is buying back stock for example or that they have hundreds of billions parked somewhere?

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#166

Post by AlexandrB »

wrong_variable wrote: post #148
shados wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not after worker supply has increased Ironically, not only do tech workers aren't worried about this, they embrace it and encourage it. An enormous amount of work is being done to lower the bar, make things more accessible, reduce the need for diplomas and certifications, downplay the value of experience, etc. Basically ensuring that they'll see significant competition in the future (those initiatives don't help "a…

Not only that, by expanding the industry - tech has been able to "eat" other industry, due to its inclusiveness. 20 years ago the internet was less than 0.01% of global GDP. Tech will continue eating industries that are structured unfairly.

> Tech will continue eating industries that are structured unfairly.

Like how tech took driving a taxi from a job that (unfairly) paid a living wage to one that doesn't.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#167

Post by kiliantics »

dalbasal wrote: post #67
dawhizkid wrote: post #8

Biggest question is if a union or union-like system makes sense in companies where the average tenure is ~2-3 years mostly due to employee choice.

I agree. This is a central question. Is the ideal model of employment the "job-for-life," or not. If not, how many of a "traditional" union's norms still make sense? Personally, im not really sure where I stand on tech unions. I suspect that certain things would be better if unions were more present. Work-life balance, unpaid overtime and always-available-on-email problems would probably be better. I suspect on-the j…

The traditional structure of unions is probably outdated in most or even all industries today but it certainly is inappropriate in tech. This doesn't mean worker organising is unnecessary, as you say. Fortunately, many people are already organising in non-traditional ways. Check out tech workers coalition:

https://techworkerscoalition.org/

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#168

Post by shados »

wrong_variable wrote: post #148
shados wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not after worker supply has increased Ironically, not only do tech workers aren't worried about this, they embrace it and encourage it. An enormous amount of work is being done to lower the bar, make things more accessible, reduce the need for diplomas and certifications, downplay the value of experience, etc. Basically ensuring that they'll see significant competition in the future (those initiatives don't help "a…

Not only that, by expanding the industry - tech has been able to "eat" other industry, due to its inclusiveness. 20 years ago the internet was less than 0.01% of global GDP. Tech will continue eating industries that are structured unfairly.

Not arguing its a bad thing that we make things more inclusive (my employer is very much into these initiatives and I fully support it and am involved in some of it!), but a lot of this growth happened in companies not exactly known for it. Netflix, Google, etc, were not paragons of fairness and inclusivity when they made it big.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#169

Post by Apocryphon »

nerdjon wrote: post #152
lallysingh wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do they leave? Are those reasons addressable by a union?

I know many people leave because of pay reasons, and maybe a union could address that. But I also find my self largely wanting to leave out of a desire for a new challenge, learn something new. It would be way to easy to stay stagnant at a company and than find yourself forced to deal with new technology in a new role, that for everyone else is old technology (and there is a limit to how much you can realistically do…

I don't know how often unions actually impact what the business does instead of how it operates, but here's an example: "Audi's unions demand electric model for main German plant" [0]

> Mosch, who sits on parent VW’s supervisory board, asked top management to provide specific information as to how the growing shift to electric cars and digital services will affect employment at Audi, which has 88,000 workers globally.

Having worked at places where management was deaf to employee concerns about the direction of the business, and seen the consequences of bad management fall upon those employees, I can clearly some sort of leverage would be good for engineers. Perhaps that could involve forcing a company to invest in new technology, thus allowing you to grow as an engineer- and perhaps making your job more secure by making the business more competitive.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13986889

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#170

Post by walshemj »

shados wrote: post #144
LarryDarrell wrote: post #9

I used to be all around anti-union. Now that I'm older I regret that position. There are bad unions and there are good unions. Sometimes they can be corrupt, but they never really exceed the corruptness of the corporate powers they negotiate with. It's an imperfect solution, but it's the only one that seems to work. The idea that we are all lone super stars that need to negotiate for ourselves is not only selfish, bu…

> not after worker supply has increased Ironically, not only do tech workers aren't worried about this, they embrace it and encourage it. An enormous amount of work is being done to lower the bar, make things more accessible, reduce the need for diplomas and certifications, downplay the value of experience, etc. Basically ensuring that they'll see significant competition in the future (those initiatives don't help "a…

Its much harder to go the self taught autodidact route now compared to when I started mumble decades ago.

Yes I know there are outliers but the vast majority of entrants are BSC grads.

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