An Open Letter to Google and Apple: Stop Hindering Iranian Entrepreneurs • Hacker News Board

Re: An Open Letter to Google and Apple: Stop Hindering Iranian Entrepreneurs

#161

Post by bjourne » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 1:19 PM UTC

yyyk wrote: post #154

bjourne wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Sanctions are designed as [..] when the people amplify the pressure beyond the point the government can withstand > Do you have any historic evidence that it ever worked like this? It worked on South Africa. My hope is similar sanctions could be put on Israel to force it to end the occupation of Palestine. But in these cases the sanctions are for specific wrongdoings that the State can address. The US sanctions a…

"It worked on South Africa... in these cases the sanctions are for specific wrongdoings that the State can address." Apartheid South Africa was justifiably asked to change their entire government system, and to hand over power from the ruling racial minority to the majority. Iran - even according to Pompeo's maximalist "12 demands"[0] - is being asked for far less: none of the demands relate to internal affairs, much…

Fair point. I read somewhere that complying with the US demands would be equivalent to "roll over and die" and that the US didn't expect compliance at all. Maybe not then.

Re: An Open Letter to Google and Apple: Stop Hindering Iranian Entrepreneurs

#162

Post by espeed » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 1:25 PM UTC

RobertoG wrote: post #151

espeed wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, PNAC's plan to dislodge the middle east was formed in the '90's. Their strategy and tactics included a series of kinetic wars that culminated with Syria, which they viewed as the most politically challenging situation. In contrast, Trump's strategy and tactics is based on economic force rather than kinetic wars. For economic force to work, the Iranian people must rise and act. Sanctions put the Iranian governmen…

Just to be sure that I understand your position: your opinion is that the motivation behind all this is "to see their potential released"?

That's what open markets are all about.

Re: An Open Letter to Google and Apple: Stop Hindering Iranian Entrepreneurs

#163

Post by qubex » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 1:34 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #74

alehul wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m trying to understand and make this analogous to what you were replying to: The reasons for the act (racist or not) does not affect it being racism?

I think part of the problem is the fact that there's a real phenomenon that's important to talk about and describe, but rather than invent a new term, that the word 'racism' has repurposed to describe it instead. 200 years ago, everyone would have understood "racism" to mean what you have implied it means: conscious individual racial prejudice. And of course, one problem that (say) blacks in the US face is widespread…

Surely the right term for what you describe is “discriminatory”. All forms of undesirable -ism fall within the broader, general purview of “discrimination”.

Re: An Open Letter to Google and Apple: Stop Hindering Iranian Entrepreneurs

#164

Post by codingdave » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 1:46 PM UTC

pnongrata wrote: post #159

codingdave wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> strike where the MONEY is What does that mean, exactly? What specific actions do you propose people take?

A few examples of things we could do to stop a little the bleeding out of democracies: 1. Outlaw lobbying; 2. Tax the ass off the filthy rich; 3. Break up big corporations in tech, oil, media, you name it. No more monopolies or monopsonies; 4. Change the electorate system. 5. Increase work conditions. Higher wages, jobs availability, social welfare, etc. The obvious takeaway is that if you reduce wealth inequality yo…

OK, how can we do those without electing leaders into office who will do those things?

Re: An Open Letter to Google and Apple: Stop Hindering Iranian Entrepreneurs

#165

Post by miracle2k » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 1:54 PM UTC

espeed wrote: post #132

miracle2k wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't really have anything to do with what I posted.

It has to do with why Iranian IPs are being blocked by Google.

No. It's because of the chilling effect of US sanctions.

Your explanation makes no sense - state hackers are not foiled by an IP block.

Re: An Open Letter to Google and Apple: Stop Hindering Iranian Entrepreneurs

#166

Post by js8 » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 3:09 PM UTC

yyyk wrote: post #154

bjourne wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Sanctions are designed as [..] when the people amplify the pressure beyond the point the government can withstand > Do you have any historic evidence that it ever worked like this? It worked on South Africa. My hope is similar sanctions could be put on Israel to force it to end the occupation of Palestine. But in these cases the sanctions are for specific wrongdoings that the State can address. The US sanctions a…

"It worked on South Africa... in these cases the sanctions are for specific wrongdoings that the State can address." Apartheid South Africa was justifiably asked to change their entire government system, and to hand over power from the ruling racial minority to the majority. Iran - even according to Pompeo's maximalist "12 demands"[0] - is being asked for far less: none of the demands relate to internal affairs, much…

There is also a question (even if we take the demands at the face value, for the sake of argument), how can public in Iran reasonably check that government is following these demands?

Really, how is that going to work operationally. Let's say I am demonstrating at the street in Tehran. I can readily tell that there is undemocratic oppression, OK. But how can I check that the government is not developing nuclear weapons or supporting terrorism, when this is hard to tell for normal citizen even in democratic countries?

IMHO, for the objectives to make sense, it would require these to be verifiable by the people pressuring the government (which you have so kindly decided to pull into the conflict). The fact that these demands are not verifiable is casting a shadow over the motives.

Re: An Open Letter to Google and Apple: Stop Hindering Iranian Entrepreneurs

#167

Post by js8 » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 3:16 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #164

pnongrata wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few examples of things we could do to stop a little the bleeding out of democracies: 1. Outlaw lobbying; 2. Tax the ass off the filthy rich; 3. Break up big corporations in tech, oil, media, you name it. No more monopolies or monopsonies; 4. Change the electorate system. 5. Increase work conditions. Higher wages, jobs availability, social welfare, etc. The obvious takeaway is that if you reduce wealth inequality yo…

OK, how can we do those without electing leaders into office who will do those things?

Why without? Ever heard of Bernie Sanders?

Re: An Open Letter to Google and Apple: Stop Hindering Iranian Entrepreneurs

#168

Post by codingdave » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

js8 wrote: post #167

codingdave wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, how can we do those without electing leaders into office who will do those things?

Why without? Ever heard of Bernie Sanders?

pnongrata is arguing that voting is worthless. I'm honestly trying to understand their position, but so far having no success. Seems to me that we absolutely should be electing leaders with political positions that match what we desire to see in our society.

Re: An Open Letter to Google and Apple: Stop Hindering Iranian Entrepreneurs

#169

Post by espeed » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

js8 wrote: post #166

yyyk wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It worked on South Africa... in these cases the sanctions are for specific wrongdoings that the State can address." Apartheid South Africa was justifiably asked to change their entire government system, and to hand over power from the ruling racial minority to the majority. Iran - even according to Pompeo's maximalist "12 demands"[0] - is being asked for far less: none of the demands relate to internal affairs, much…

There is also a question (even if we take the demands at the face value, for the sake of argument), how can public in Iran reasonably check that government is following these demands? Really, how is that going to work operationally. Let's say I am demonstrating at the street in Tehran. I can readily tell that there is undemocratic oppression, OK. But how can I check that the government is not developing nuclear weapo…

The big corporations of the world keep their governments in check. And the corporations within countries are kept in check by the market forces from their competing interests, government regulation, consumer perception and demand.

At the international level, the international corporations located in multiple countries don't want the different countries they're in going to war with each other, and so the massive leverage of international corporations in open markets provide an invisible hand of unseen forces that keep wars at bay.

Re: An Open Letter to Google and Apple: Stop Hindering Iranian Entrepreneurs

#170

Post by js8 » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 4:23 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #168

js8 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why without? Ever heard of Bernie Sanders?

pnongrata is arguing that voting is worthless. I'm honestly trying to understand their position, but so far having no success. Seems to me that we absolutely should be electing leaders with political positions that match what we desire to see in our society.

Not only the political positions that match the desire, but also voting record that matches their position.

I would personally prefer direct democracy, but I think it is extreme to claim that every politician is corrupt.