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Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

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Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#161

Post by khawkins »

JohnFen wrote: post #84
khawkins wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand the extreme hostility to data collection and data markets. No one likes ads, but no one wants to have to pay a subscription fee to every single site on the internet. If I'm going to see ads, I'd rather them be something I might potentially find useful than something irrelevant. If I end up buying their product, the exchange is mutually beneficial and both parties walk away with value from th…

All of the following is my opinion only. > I really don't understand the extreme hostility to data collection and data markets. I can easily explain my extreme hostility to this: that it happens without my consent and that companies put so much work into actively evading the defenses I put up against it. > No one likes ads This isn't about ads. This is about data collection. If ads existed without the spying, I would…

You haven't convinced me that the data they collect can harm you as an individual. How is your life actually negatively impacted? How is this a more rational concern than conspiracy theorists thinking the government is monitoring their private phone calls?

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#162

Post by a1369209993 »

MichaelApproved wrote: post #31
darkpuma wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May as well forbid it outright at that point. (They should. Everybody deserves protection from this, even the people who don't understand the threat it poses. The uninformed, ignorant or naive all deserve protection, since preying on ignorance or naivety is generally considered abhorrent by anybody who's not totally morally defective.)

> May as well forbid it outright at that point. I was wondering about that point myself. I am thinking that they may not have the authority to create such law, so they still allow ISPs the ability to track but make it as restrictive as possible.

I think it's just the equivalent of "you can't stab someone unless they give you express prior permission to do so". It may technically be less restrictive, but in practice noone is ever going to opt-in to that without coersion. Of course, in actual practice, we'll probably see a dozen different loopholes inside a year, but I'm willing to give them credit for at least pretending to fix this particular part of the problem; it's just matter of keeping up the pressure and momentum.

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#163

Post by RandomGuyDTB »

> The bill will go into effect if Gov. Mills signs it

She'll sign it. Mainer here who's been following what's been going on (she's our first female governor), she's been very committed to making sure our state is modernized. She quoted Kurt Vonnegut in her inaugural speech.

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#164

Post by kevin_b_er »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #66
shanty wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy have I got a surprise for you. I was an engineer at a web analytics firm a decade ago and yes, ISPs have your web browsing data and are selling it left and right. Also apps, Cell phone companies, etc. Our company bought all that data. and when that wasn't enough, we created apps that collected even more. Every click and ajax request, etc.... timestamped. Yes, there are analysts sifting through your browsing data…

> ISPs have your web browsing data Since you worked in this area: What specific things do they track, and by what technical mechanism? DNS requests? (Do they capture those that don't go to their servers?) IP addresses? HTTP snooping? Full HTTP (non-TLS) MITM?

They're tracking the TLS ones too. DNS & Server Name Indication reveals which site you're going to. DPI means they're watching the content of the HTTP pages you go to as well.

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#165

Post by jhayward »

marmada wrote: post #45
inetknght wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your consent should be considered an outlier and should not be used to hinder my lack thereof.

I don't think their consent is an outlier. Most users are somewhat ok with selling their data in exchange for free services. I mean I use Gmail, Google Search, Google Maps, etc. etc. knowing they hoover up my data because, in the end, I value the ability to have these services for free more than I care about Google's ability to collect useful statistics about me/its users.

> As a user who understands and consents to that request

They can't really consent, because no-one truly understands what it is that they are agreeing to. It is simply not possible to have informed consent about the use, re-sale, re-combination, re-identification, long-term storage, profiling, credit/employment/health/housing impacts, etc. It's not possible to consent because you can't tell what you are giving away about other people who you aren't aware that you're impacting, and don't have their permission to do so. There just isn't any way for someone to say 'I understand and consent' and have it be meaningful.

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#166

Post by jhayward »

darkpuma wrote: post #142
chillacy wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has this worked out in practice, say with cookie warnings? Or do most of us click Accept and move on?

You get asked to accept a cookie once per site. The proposal above is way more annoying.

No, I get asked to accept a cookie on every page view because I don't allow cookies.

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#167

Post by 867-5309 »

sushid wrote: post #152
ljm wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

‘reasonable’

Law is meant to be interpretive. Inflexible technical requirement that become law is what foments issues like South Korea's ActiveX requirements of 1996.

nice word of the day usage ;)

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#168

Post by khawkins »

kelnos wrote: post #75
khawkins wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand the extreme hostility to data collection and data markets. No one likes ads, but no one wants to have to pay a subscription fee to every single site on the internet. If I'm going to see ads, I'd rather them be something I might potentially find useful than something irrelevant. If I end up buying their product, the exchange is mutually beneficial and both parties walk away with value from th…

> no one wants to have to pay a subscription fee to every single site on the internet. If we had a reasonable micropayments system so I could spend a few cents per article I read online from non-subscription sites, I'd be thrilled. I do not want to see ads, ever. I do not want companies collecting or selling my activity patterns. If I've signed up for something, I don't want my personal details sold to someone else i…

Legislating such a micropayments system would centralize the monetization of internet services in a way unprecedented since the advent of the internet. If you're worried a lack of Net Neutrality would suppress free speech, this would strangle it.

You'd create two internets: a bourgeoisie sphere of corporate sites with enough influence to be included in the micropayment system, and the unwashed masses, the sites deemed unworthy of monetization, forced to survive on crippled ad market. The handful of large corporate microtransaction payment processors would get to pick and choose who gets to be on the "good internet" without any oversight.

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#169

Post by top-news-talk »

asark wrote: post #18
rhino369 wrote: post #5

Why not ban browser companies, operating system companies, computer/phone companies, email providers, etc. too?

We should ban collecting tons if info about people, for all companies, period. We won't, because banks and CC companies are very into doing that and the politicians love them, but we should.

The solution to all of this buying and selling of information is simpler than we all think. We will be creating a credit reporting type agency but for data privacy. This will tell us who pulled your information as a credit reporting agency does when you sign up for a Credit Card. Now to what extent does it disclose what what captured we as citizens will have to stand up and fight for that.

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#170

Post by noir_lord »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #149
noir_lord wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are describing is a form of race to the bottom, if all you competitors (in business or life generally) get ahead and away with behaving unscrupulously the only rational course is to behave unscrupulously. What is particularly tragic is that all it takes to get this rolling is the perception that others are doing something and people will move to follow. Campaign attack adds, lying about diesel emissions, doc…

100% seconding your observation; I've been arguing something similar myself for a while too. That's why I'm totally serious when I say, ban the shit out of the advertising industry. Burn it to the ground, with legislative fire. Half of this crap comes from advertisers and ad-supported sites (the other probably mostly from airlines). This won't solve everything, but would be a nice start. There will always be scoundre…

Turn on feature you really don’t want?

Combined with asking you constantly if you say no and never asking again if you say yes.

I hate that shit and it creates a negative feeling for me towards whatever product is doing it, if I’m aware you are trying to trick me why would I trust you.

It must work (for some set of work) though or they wouldn’t do it.

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