Outschooling • Hacker News Board

Re: Outschooling

#161

Post by camelNotation » Thu, May 30, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

inetknght wrote: post #86

camelNotation wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is a problem with homeschooling as much as with a subset of homeschoolers - particularly religious fundamentalists and anarchist types. My wife and I homeschool, but we have our kids pushing well beyond their grade level in every subject. She had a teaching license up until a couple of years ago (they do expire after a while) and taught for several years before we had kids. Then, once they arrived,…

You present one well-honored experience. I present a stark contrast to it. > My wife and I homeschool, but we have our kids pushing well beyond their grade level in every subject. My parents told themselves the same thing. I apparently had top percentile test scores in several early years, particularly in math. Despite that, my parents completely failed to provide an education after choosing to homeschool. > She had…

I've known several people, like yourself, that had that sort of abusive experience while homeschooling. We've built our system with the specific purpose of avoiding those pitfalls. I think you're projecting your suffering on us and not seeing the reality of what homeschooling is like outside a paranoid, anarcho-religious context. I empathize, but I'm not convinced there are any actual similarities.

Re: Outschooling

#162

Post by formalsystem » Thu, May 30, 2019, 2:33 PM UTC

up_and_up wrote: post #155

formalsystem wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh man I have so many questions. I've been thinking about doing this one day myself but haven't been able to find good answers to the below. How much time do you spend as a parent teaching or overseeing homeschooling? Are you encouraging your kids to go to college? And if they did want to go to college do they realistically have the option to pick the school they want? Any state or country requirements you need to ad…

> How much time do you spend as a parent teaching or overseeing homeschooling? Its a busy schedule for my wife, granted we have 3 kids. She also works part-time at their nature camp > Are you encouraging your kids to go to college? Depends. I plan on enrolling them at the local community college by age 14-15. > And if they did want to go to college do they realistically have the option to pick the school they want? I…

Wow thank you! Your answers are really encouraging. Any books or links you like that clarified your thoughts on homeschooling?

Re: Outschooling

#163

Post by burfog » Thu, May 30, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #158

notacoward wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you're sharing your experience, would you like to address the original claim that "professional educators really only need the training and certification because they are dealing with students at scale"? Or would that not suit the preferred narrative?

I think that’s actually too kind to training and certification since it implies that they’re useful when dealing with students at scale. The main benefit from learning about pedagogy was not in the application, it was in knowing the jargon for talking to other teachers and sounding like a professional. What’s annoying is that the jargon U.K. and US trained teachers use differs slightly. You get better at teaching by…

This confirms what another teacher told me: the training is garbage. He found it to be insane psychobabble that he could only tolerate while drunk. There was nothing useful. The teacher training did almost nothing to cover the key skill of classroom control. His fellow students were incompetent, spending most of their time partying. You could pass if you regurgitated the nonsense.

Re: Outschooling

#164

Post by winchling » Thu, May 30, 2019, 3:09 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #159

winchling wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we don't really know what a good social environment for children looks like. But it does seem obvious that being forced to associate with brutes is unpleasant, demoralising and inconducive to academic learning. By the same token why not teach people to deal with pain by tapping them daily with hammers? We also have to factor in also that many people will become brutes as a result of this forced association, like…

Academic learning is not nearly as important as good socialisation (dealing with brutes etc.) IMO. For most people who are not smart enough to get a good, competitive office job (like software engineer, doctor etc.), those years in school seem largely pointless, apart from learning basics like literacy, algebra etc. And even for academically gifted, life without social skills must be worse than being an under-perform…

But again, what about the people who become bullies and brutes as a result?

The way we learn to get along is through a combination of shared challenges and by trying to emulate people we admire. Not being locked up with Bane seven hours every day.

Re: Outschooling

#165

Post by alain94040 » Thu, May 30, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

ericd wrote: post #134

inetknght wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You present one well-honored experience. I present a stark contrast to it. > My wife and I homeschool, but we have our kids pushing well beyond their grade level in every subject. My parents told themselves the same thing. I apparently had top percentile test scores in several early years, particularly in math. Despite that, my parents completely failed to provide an education after choosing to homeschool. > She had…

Sorry you had such a bad time of it. I know some people who were homeschooled as kids (unschooled, in one case), and they turned out to be exceptional people. It seems pretty clear from interacting with them that their attitudes and abilities are a direct result of their schooling (and having parents who would be willing to school their kids in that way). But I'm sure homeschooling can also turn out very badly if the…

Survivorship bias? By definition, you are not likely to meet all the kids who failed miserably with homeschooling. Instead, you are more likely to interact socially or at work with the ones that did great. Therefore, your observation is likely to be biased.

Re: Outschooling

#166

Post by ericd » Thu, May 30, 2019, 5:58 PM UTC

alain94040 wrote: post #165

ericd wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry you had such a bad time of it. I know some people who were homeschooled as kids (unschooled, in one case), and they turned out to be exceptional people. It seems pretty clear from interacting with them that their attitudes and abilities are a direct result of their schooling (and having parents who would be willing to school their kids in that way). But I'm sure homeschooling can also turn out very badly if the…

Survivorship bias? By definition, you are not likely to meet all the kids who failed miserably with homeschooling. Instead, you are more likely to interact socially or at work with the ones that did great. Therefore, your observation is likely to be biased.

Yeah, fair. I haven’t taken a broad sample of homeschooled kids.

But I do think there’s some signal in the fact that I’m dealing with the success cases of public and home schooling, and the homeschooled ones stand out as exceptional in that population.

What kinds of conclusions can reasonably be drawn from that, though, I don’t know.

Re: Outschooling

#167

Post by badpun » Thu, May 30, 2019, 7:45 PM UTC

winchling wrote: post #164

badpun wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Academic learning is not nearly as important as good socialisation (dealing with brutes etc.) IMO. For most people who are not smart enough to get a good, competitive office job (like software engineer, doctor etc.), those years in school seem largely pointless, apart from learning basics like literacy, algebra etc. And even for academically gifted, life without social skills must be worse than being an under-perform…

But again, what about the people who become bullies and brutes as a result? The way we learn to get along is through a combination of shared challenges and by trying to emulate people we admire. Not being locked up with Bane seven hours every day.

That's fine for learning to get along. Many relationships are antagonistic though, and dealing with a bully in school can help with dealing with an abusive spouse/family member/boss/colleague later in life etc. There are bullies in adult life too, they're just more subtle.

Re: Outschooling

#168

Post by up_and_up » Fri, May 31, 2019, 12:26 AM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #138

droithomme wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not the guy behind the startup in the OP, he's just a guy doing homeschooling sharing his own personal experience. He's saying that at one point they went to Paris, which is a very educational think to do. That's homeschooling. Then they also studied Viking stuff. Maybe it was even in Norway at Viking sites? That sort of thing. A reasonable response to what do you do that Khan Academy doesn't which was the quest…

> He's saying that at one point they went to Paris Right, but that's not clear. He listed it as a lesson/subject. It can be read as an actual trip, or a virtual trip.

Its was a virtual field trip I believe

Re: Outschooling

#169

Post by winchling » Fri, May 31, 2019, 12:44 AM UTC

badpun wrote: post #167

winchling wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But again, what about the people who become bullies and brutes as a result? The way we learn to get along is through a combination of shared challenges and by trying to emulate people we admire. Not being locked up with Bane seven hours every day.

That's fine for learning to get along. Many relationships are antagonistic though, and dealing with a bully in school can help with dealing with an abusive spouse/family member/boss/colleague later in life etc. There are bullies in adult life too, they're just more subtle.

I'm sure that many people have learnt to deal with bullies that way. Fair enough, and everyone should make the best of whatever environment he finds himself in. But it would be a mistake to think, as people often do, that one's own historical path represents the best path for all.

For one thing, setting aside how cruel it is, at 12 years+ the 'school bully learning method' is monstrously inefficient.

Btw, similar arguments are applied to most school subjects. For example, one is forced to take obsolete subject X because it is useful if one later wishes to study subject Y, which is in turn can be helpful if Z crops up in adult life, and so on.

Most sane adults would rather learn 'just in time' and to the precision and extent appropriate to the unique challenge they face. Yet, perhaps because of the enormous sunk cost of their own schooling, they become irrational about this where their children are concerned.

Re: Outschooling

#170

Post by droithomme » Fri, May 31, 2019, 1:54 AM UTC

up_and_up wrote: post #168

jonny_eh wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's saying that at one point they went to Paris Right, but that's not clear. He listed it as a lesson/subject. It can be read as an actual trip, or a virtual trip.

Its was a virtual field trip I believe

Wait a minute.

You "believe"?

You don't know if your own kids went with you to Paris or not?

I call shenanigans. You're a duplicate account or otherwise working for OP's company.

Sheesh. This situation with YC funded companies getting dog and pony show coverage here with a bevy of fake accounts and special algorithmic preference is never going to stop. YC's so full of crap it's amazing. Bogus.