I think it has to do with red tape surrounding the hiring process. There's an essentially infinite number of traits a potential employer cannot ask about (like intelligence), but a degree isn't one of them. So degrees matter because they are the only filter HR departments are allowed to use.
Ask YC: Why the degree?
161–170 of 211 posts
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#162"I know several people that have degree's in computer science, and none have any magical abilities that you only pickup at university." I think you are shortchanging the value of a formal education. You are forced to learn things you don't necessarily enjoy. For example, I was forced to take a few stats courses which I found extremely boring, but recently at work it was incredibly valuable. I know I thought I was a g…
>Now I am sure a few people are going to say I have drunk the Kool-Aid.
Even if you point this out ahead of time, those people could still be right.
>I think getting a degree still opens many doors, and because of that I followed through with it.
Signals are wasteful.
>but looking back I have no regrets.
Most people think whatever choices they made were the best. That you have no regrets is not unusual.
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are lots of other cheap filters that companies do not use. For example, "Have you read Ayn Rand?" This question may well have better predictive power than a degree. And it's not hard to verify if the person is lying about whether they've read some at all. Or, "how many blog posts do you have about programming?" Again this is easy to verify.
Who is Ayn Rand? An utterly dreadful writer and philosopher who believed that the axiom of reflexivity of identity had substantive ontological, social, moral and political consequences. It's no accident that Objectivists sought to justify their belief in the "virtue of selfishness" in the law of reflexivity; they have no use for altruism. Rand's philosophy glorifies the sociopath homo economicus, whose sole objective…
Ayn Rand seems to be (significantly) more popular here than in the general population, judging from a dozen or so times I've seen her come up in comment threads. Isn't that more relevant than your personal, negative opinion of her philosophy?
So, out of curiosity, do these "results in evolutionary game theory" have a source?
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#164Two of the best software engineers I've ever hired (and worked with) did not have college degrees (one only had a GED for high school). But they were both highly talented and came highly recommended from people I trusted.
No, getting a CS degree doesn't guarantee that you're talented; far from it. However, it does show that you have enough aptitude to make it through a CS program, and it lessens the chance that you'll spend my time re-inventing -- or, worse yet, ignoring -- foundational concepts in computer science and software engineering.
Here are some more of my thoughts on the subject of hiring IT engineers:
http://brucefwebster.com/2008/01/10/the-wetware-crisis-tepes...
http://brucefwebster.com/2008/04/14/the-longest-yard-reorgan...
(and thanks to dmv for the link to my 'Dead Sea' post, which is what led me here). ..bruce..
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are lots of other cheap filters that companies do not use. For example, "Have you read Ayn Rand?" This question may well have better predictive power than a degree. And it's not hard to verify if the person is lying about whether they've read some at all. Or, "how many blog posts do you have about programming?" Again this is easy to verify.
Who is Ayn Rand? An utterly dreadful writer and philosopher who believed that the axiom of reflexivity of identity had substantive ontological, social, moral and political consequences. It's no accident that Objectivists sought to justify their belief in the "virtue of selfishness" in the law of reflexivity; they have no use for altruism. Rand's philosophy glorifies the sociopath homo economicus, whose sole objective…
I suspect the point is that having heard of and bothered to read one of her books, whether you liked or agreed with it or not, probably implies various things about you.
A) You socialize(d) with people who read things that aren't sold in the grocery store.
B) You not only know how to read, but most likely voluntarily read a 700+ page book in your spare time in order to learn/see what it was about/etc...
C) If you can speak about what was in the book, and what you thought about it, you can follow the plot of a 700+ page book, you can understand the points the author was making, perhaps you can intuit the not-very-subtle philosophical and societal messages she was delivering, and you can discuss how you agree or disagree with those messages.
It's no IQ test, but frankly it's probably a much better question than "Do you have a degree?".
At least I'd rather work with people who have read a book like that, and have an opinion on it's content and the author's points (even if they hated the book/points/etc...), than the average CS degree graduate.
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#166I wouldn't let it stop you. I've applied for and been offered numerous jobs which listed a college degree as a requirement (I don't have one). It helps to have a good resume. And by that I mean one that not only has lots of strong relevant job history, but also one that is well presented/written and really shows off your strengths, while minimizing things that might be liabilities (like the lack of a degree). For instance, my resume doesn't even have an education section.
So don't let it stop you. Also, as other people have mentioned, if you can duck HR, that's great too. If you don't know anyone who works there, find one of their tech folks on a forum somewhere, and work in from that way. Most places give employees hiring bonuses for referrals, so most people will be happy to help you get in the door (assuming they think you're good enough to want to work with you).
Personally, having worked at many places, I generally find folks with CS degrees to be liabilities. Especially if they're relatively fresh out of college. Granted I don't work in areas where you need lots of knowledge about machine learning, or AI, or... I do Java-based web application development.
I've found that most CS programs, by nature of the need to identify topics, and build curriculums and supporting materials, are years behind the real world new technologies. I'd rather hire/work with someone who had spent the last four years building cool things with the latest and greatest technologies. Who knew the real world tips, tricks, and pitfalls of a given approach/language/toolkit/framework. Rather than someone who'd spent the last 4 years in a classroom or a frat house, learning technology that is 1-6 years out of date, and didn't have hands-on-experience with how to handle a Slashdotting, or how to run a secure world facing server/postfix/whatever, or knew that Firefox treats xml response types very strictly and breaks on Google inserted AdSense javascript, unless you force the type to html (while IE and Safari don't care).
Don't get me wrong, there are some smart people in CS programs, or coming out of CS programs, but based on my working/hiring experience, in general, a CS degree is a slight liability on a resume from my point of view.
Real World Experience > College Degree.
And frankly, for the type of work I do, Real World Experience + College Degree usually == Real World Experience.
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#167I'm in the exact same boat, I don't have a degree - I must admit, I worked at a company that hired people with/ without degrees and the programmers that I could relate best with were the ones who had degrees. I've been thinking about getting a degree, but between working a full time job and doing a startup I just don't have the time, I have however bought myself two excellent books, which I'm hoping to fill the gaps…
"Web developers who don't have degrees aren't exposed to the fundamentals and fancy algorithms that are beaten in to you in CS courses." That's not true. First of people without degrees can be dropouts, having learned it in school before dropping out. Second, people can self teach that stuff too.
I can believe that someone would have the discipline to sit down with a textbook and teach themselves something. I've done it myself (although I wish I could do it more often). But the problem is that it isn't always obvious what parts are important or why. I found in my first year of university I learned a whole lot more CS than I ever did before, not just because I was being taught at a faster pace but also because I had a better feel for what I should learn on my own.
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who is Ayn Rand? An utterly dreadful writer and philosopher who believed that the axiom of reflexivity of identity had substantive ontological, social, moral and political consequences. It's no accident that Objectivists sought to justify their belief in the "virtue of selfishness" in the law of reflexivity; they have no use for altruism. Rand's philosophy glorifies the sociopath homo economicus, whose sole objective…
Ayn Rand seems to be (significantly) more popular here than in the general population, judging from a dozen or so times I've seen her come up in comment threads. Isn't that more relevant than your personal, negative opinion of her philosophy? So, out of curiosity, do these "results in evolutionary game theory" have a source?
"Isn't that more relevant than your personal, negative opinion of her philosophy?"
No, because it's not only a personal opinion, but a statement that Rand's philosophy of rational self interest is logically invalid ('rational' does not imply 'self interest'; the basis on the reflexivity of identity could fairly be called desperate) and scientifically incorrect. Rand's philosophy is incompatible with findings of reciprocal altruism in evolutionary biology and experimental game theory.
"So, out of curiosity, do these "results in evolutionary game theory" have a source?"
Here's one: "Game Theory Evolving" by Herbert Gintis; see Chapter 11. http://www.amazon.com/Game-Theory-Evolving-Herbert-Gintis/dp...
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who is Ayn Rand? An utterly dreadful writer and philosopher who believed that the axiom of reflexivity of identity had substantive ontological, social, moral and political consequences. It's no accident that Objectivists sought to justify their belief in the "virtue of selfishness" in the law of reflexivity; they have no use for altruism. Rand's philosophy glorifies the sociopath homo economicus, whose sole objective…
I suspect the point is that having heard of and bothered to read one of her books, whether you liked or agreed with it or not, probably implies various things about you. A) You socialize(d) with people who read things that aren't sold in the grocery store. B) You not only know how to read, but most likely voluntarily read a 700+ page book in your spare time in order to learn/see what it was about/etc... C) If you can…
Very few people are hiring based on an understanding of objectivism. Data structures and algorithms on the other hand...
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#170do you know Ruby? let's talk.