Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

In search of a truce in the autism wars

spectrumnews.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–169 of 169 posts

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#161

Post by Nomentatus »

0815test wrote: post #153
Nomentatus wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you're assuming that the neuro-diverse can mimic these signals so much better than sociopaths that any citizen will cheerfully hand them a (false!) "yes quite empathic" sticker. And that they can do so at little cost! Not so and not so. The usual result of this strategy is that in return for their heroic efforts, the neuro-diverse person appears "very plastic" and falls heavily into the "uncanny valley." This ca…

> Wow, you're assuming that the neuro-diverse can mimic these signals so much better than sociopaths Given how little we know about the inner mental states of sociopaths (as opposed to their outward behavior), I don't think we can simply assume that they're closer to the neurotypical ideal than autistics. (There's even some speculation that they may essentially be "emotional Reptilians", with an emotional palette tha…

I don't think we're disagreeing much about the background. But as for results: I've known both - the sociopaths were much better in my experience. More repetitive, granted, but with far fewer obvious misfires and much less strain.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#162

Post by bsder »

ionised wrote: post #129
bsder wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you mention Japan when the word hikikomori exists?

Hikikimori is not synonymous with introversion.

> Hikikimori is not synonymous with introversion.

Hikikomori sure as hell isn't extroversion. It's going to encompass a lot of introverts. And it is considered at the level of an offense against society.

> No one there is considered strange for being a bit stiff and un-expressive.

While you may not be expected to express your emotions, Japan has lots of public "rituals" that you WILL comply with or be labeled "strange". (The late evening salaryman drinking party, for example.)

Maybe it's not "extroversion" toward strangers, but Japan is extremely uptight about your interactions within your "in-group". You will interact and you will show proper deference, etc. Attempting to duck these public rituals or not interacting at them with gusto will very quickly get you approbation.

That's extremely hostile to introverts--probably more so than even the US where there are areas where people will simply leave you alone.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#163

Post by 0815test »

Nomentatus wrote: post #161
0815test wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wow, you're assuming that the neuro-diverse can mimic these signals so much better than sociopaths Given how little we know about the inner mental states of sociopaths (as opposed to their outward behavior), I don't think we can simply assume that they're closer to the neurotypical ideal than autistics. (There's even some speculation that they may essentially be "emotional Reptilians", with an emotional palette tha…

I don't think we're disagreeing much about the background. But as for results: I've known both - the sociopaths were much better in my experience. More repetitive, granted, but with far fewer obvious misfires and much less strain.

I mean, the repetitiveness itself should be kind of a tell-tale sign, shouldn't it? And for that matter, I'm not even convinced that sociopaths have that highly-developed of a TOM (Theory Of Mind) either. Their manipulations seem to be skin-deep, and they have deeper problems with succeeding in negotiation and letting go of entitlement attitudes, even when they would stand to gain significantly from doing so - that are hard to explain other than via a defective TOM. (It might even be possible to explore these things via formal research, such as by enticing/incenting sociopathic subjects to play properly-specified games/puzzles that require them to manipulate someone in just the right (and increasingly complex) ways, and looking at their outcomes.)

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#164

Post by Nomentatus »

0815test wrote: post #163
Nomentatus wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we're disagreeing much about the background. But as for results: I've known both - the sociopaths were much better in my experience. More repetitive, granted, but with far fewer obvious misfires and much less strain.

I mean, the repetitiveness itself should be kind of a tell-tale sign, shouldn't it? And for that matter, I'm not even convinced that sociopaths have that highly-developed of a TOM (Theory Of Mind) either. Their manipulations seem to be skin-deep, and they have deeper problems with succeeding in negotiation and letting go of entitlement attitudes, even when they would stand to gain significantly from doing so - that a…

Interesting followup. Re repetition - it's a sign but only after a couple months do you notice that all these pleasing utterances you keep hearing are expressed with one of the same three emotional notes. Sociopaths have no real theory of mind, I agree, just a lot of stimulus-response mimicked behavior, lifted from those who do have a theory of mind. Negotiation is a very interesting topic in this regard. I like your research program proposal. I've noticed a lot more pleading or demanding than trading from sociopaths; good trading/negotiation pretty much requires a theory of the other's mind, needs, etc.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#165

Post by nicoburns »

TheOperator wrote: post #160
0815test wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what? If you show that you're willing and able to take responsibility for what you did, and engage in compensation as needed, no one will be offended. Indeed, many will be favorably impressed because this is not something that antisocial people do often - as a rule, such people tend to be highly entitled, and have trouble with the whole idea of engaging in a successful negotiation with others. There is no quick…

My concern wasn't getting offended. Nor is my intent to use autism as a "get out of jail free card". Yet its simply true that if you don't communicate you have a disability with people they will not understand your situation, misinterpret the situation, and assume things about you which are not true. This leads to stigma. You can try as hard as you want to accomidate others but if you have a social disability you wil…

I would recommend not telling recruiters, but bringing it up at interview.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#166

Post by 0815test »

Nomentatus wrote: post #164
0815test wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, the repetitiveness itself should be kind of a tell-tale sign, shouldn't it? And for that matter, I'm not even convinced that sociopaths have that highly-developed of a TOM (Theory Of Mind) either. Their manipulations seem to be skin-deep, and they have deeper problems with succeeding in negotiation and letting go of entitlement attitudes, even when they would stand to gain significantly from doing so - that a…

Interesting followup. Re repetition - it's a sign but only after a couple months do you notice that all these pleasing utterances you keep hearing are expressed with one of the same three emotional notes. Sociopaths have no real theory of mind, I agree, just a lot of stimulus-response mimicked behavior, lifted from those who do have a theory of mind. Negotiation is a very interesting topic in this regard. I like your…

> Sociopaths have no real theory of mind, I agree, just a lot of stimulus-response mimicked behavior

I mean, it might be that they do have a core TOM in addition to the stimulus-response stuff - but one that fails, because by default they're generalizing their own mental states/emotional ranges to others, not the neurotypical's or for that matter the autistic's. (Thus, even their TOM defects would be - at least to some extent - a consequence of them lacking certain drives. Including, of course, the uniquely-human drive to "truck, barter and trade" that makes people willing to engage constructively with others, even when pursuing entirely-selfish goals.)

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#167

Post by rincebrain »

0815test wrote: post #144
TheOperator wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you can brush your teeth, comb your hair, tie your shoes, and iron and fold clothes but choose not to then you aren’t autistic. "Choose" is an awkward word here. There are autistic people who will do alk these things, have a slight road bump on life, and it will all fracture apart. Then they will self-isolate for awhile and eventually emerge and try it again. There's a sort of category of people who can do these…

> There are autistic people who will do alk these things, have a slight road bump on life, and it will all fracture apart. This happens to everyone, including neurotypicals. It's what used to be known as a nervous breakdown, and more recently is labeled as acute stress disorder. Sure, the level of stress resilience can differ greatly among individuals, but that's the point: it's a difference in degree, not in kind!

Sort of?

I would argue it's messier than just variation in magnitude - there are different groups of behavioral changes that happen under different levels of duress.

I know people who, under heavy stress, aggressively clean everything, even if it's just been cleaned, as a coping mechanism. I also know people who fail to clean anything under mild stress, and lots of somewhat odd subsets.

I would suspect you could pattern match these and get subsets which will be more commonly comorbid with some autistic traits, but the patterns can matter for what you can predict about other often-comorbid things, as well as which coping mechanisms may or may not work.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#168

Post by Madmallard »

geofft wrote: post #31
Madmallard wrote: post #15

Theres loads of research linking autism with metabolic dysfunction. It is not a state of health.

Hm, https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/clinical-research-metaboli... argues otherwise. Also, would you say that I'm not in a state of health because I'm allergic to nuts?

Studies have associated both mitochondrial disorders and elevated peptide levels in urine with autism.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#169

Post by kop316 »

civilitty wrote: post #114
kop316 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking the same thing. In the genetic lottery, I have colorblindness and 20/13 vision. I would much rather that than normal color vision and 20/20 or worse vision.

You'd rather have color blindness than something that can be corrected by surgery so effectively that poor vision is no longer disqualifying for fighter jet pilots?

Yes. The only reason I notice I have color blindness is because it is pointed out to me. Outside of that, I would never know I have it. It is at best worst a mild annoyance once every few months.

On the other hand, eye corrective surgery does not correct to 20/20 unless your vision isn't very bad (to your fighter jet pilot reference, it says your vision must be correctable to 20/20). There is also a lot of side effects to corrective surgery. One is you suffer from dry eyes for the rest of tour life. You can also get halos at night and have permanent damage to night vision. This is on tip of the fact that corrective surgery is not permanent, age will revert the issue.

If I had a choice between the two, I would much rather take naturally good vision with colorblindness versus bad vision without.

Post reply on HN