Is everything an MLM • Hacker News Board

Re: Is everything an MLM

#161

Post by yeahitslikethat » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #83

UweSchmidt wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economy that you describe, is the simplified econ 101 version. The market fixes everything, and the invisible hand steers everything to optimality. The human being you describe in your last paragraph is from the same economics textbook: A perfectly rational human being making rational decisions 24/7. Both are simplified models that help doing some undergrad economics...but are absolutely insufficient to explain t…

The alternative to letting the individual determine what they want is to let someone else choose for them. I’m arguing on fundamental principles because the parent commenter is advocating a reorganization of market-based economies. I don’t care how complex the system is. If you aren’t letting me, the individual, determine what is best for my life, then you are coming from a place of superiority and belief that you kn…

That's just it. Sometimes you DO know better. Like we know it's better that homes aren't bought and left empty in dense urban housing markets, but wealthy people love to buy them all up.

So, yes. I do. And you do too.

We also don't need humvees. Or diamonds.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#162

Post by petra » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

sverige wrote: post #152

petra wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

soviet-style housing is a bit extreme. But what's wrong with being equal ?

So far, all of the experiments to make everyone equal have resulted in soviet-style housing for the many and well-appointed dachas for the few -- and that's at best. I'm doubtful that future experiments will have a different result.

Maybe.

In countries with socialized medicine, access to healthcare services is usually more equal than countries without socialized medicine.

So if some equality can be created in such an important choice, maybe it could be achieved in the less important choice of counter tops, if someone we're to bother.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#163

Post by neilv » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 5:18 PM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #117

seibelj wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry that this is your world view, because it is deeply flawed and focusing on such cynicism leads to depression. Most of HN lives in a tech bubble where everyone is focused on building semi-useless software like you describe. However the majority of society still does “normal” things like construction, manufacturing, sales, etc. and some sort of fundamental reorganizing of society on non-market principles doesn…

Almost every job i've worked outside of tech is pretty much some non essential service or product. Right now I turn mountains into countertops and fireplaces using large, expensive machines so rich people can have stone inside their homes. I provide nothing that is essential, yet every day customers spend tens of thousands of dollars and my spends thousands so rich people can have nice shiny stone inside their homes.…

That sounds like very honest and value-providing work.

And, though non-essential (down there on a hierarchy of needs), beauty is important to human lives.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#164

Post by philipkglass » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #146

sverige wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't you arguing directly that we should all live in soviet-style housing blocks? Concrete is good enough, right? Then we'd all be equal.

I'm not saying they're wrong to have them. I'm pointing out spending $20,000 on some piece of stone for you to prepare your food on is fairly non-essential. Though again, they remove mountains for this, the shop produces a bunch of toxic, fish killing dust and sediment every day that's slowly killing me and my coworkers and destroying the planet. But my main point was, the things I create every day are not essential.…

If you were supplying things that less affluent people can afford, you might have different but equally strong regrets about the unsustainable ways that business operates. For what it's worth, the full life cycle environmental impact of cheap plastic laminate counters is likely worse than that of polished natural stone.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#165

Post by seibelj » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

aiisjustanif wrote: post #138

seibelj wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative to letting the individual determine what they want is to let someone else choose for them. I’m arguing on fundamental principles because the parent commenter is advocating a reorganization of market-based economies. I don’t care how complex the system is. If you aren’t letting me, the individual, determine what is best for my life, then you are coming from a place of superiority and belief that you kn…

I suggest you take a but to watch https://youtu.be/PHe0bXAIuk0 . Economics isn't so simple and only from the perspective of the buyer.

I have seen this video and it's well put together. But how does it advocate for reorganizing the economy to eliminate market principles, which is the entire debate we are having? Great video, but wholly irrelevant to this discussion.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#166

Post by tracer4201 » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #83

UweSchmidt wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economy that you describe, is the simplified econ 101 version. The market fixes everything, and the invisible hand steers everything to optimality. The human being you describe in your last paragraph is from the same economics textbook: A perfectly rational human being making rational decisions 24/7. Both are simplified models that help doing some undergrad economics...but are absolutely insufficient to explain t…

The alternative to letting the individual determine what they want is to let someone else choose for them. I’m arguing on fundamental principles because the parent commenter is advocating a reorganization of market-based economies. I don’t care how complex the system is. If you aren’t letting me, the individual, determine what is best for my life, then you are coming from a place of superiority and belief that you kn…

Look, your original description was basically the textbook definition of supply and demand in a free market. Intuitively it’s explainable, but in the 21st century, at least in many parts of the western world, the wealthy are essentially driving the ship and steering economic and political outcomes to their own advantage. You’re describing a perfect utopia, which doesn’t exist.

>The alternative to letting the individual determine what they want is to let someone else choose for them.

Really because we can’t use policy or regulation to have folks pay some cost for the impact their decisions have on society?

Your black and white view of the world is incredibly misguided. Your post reminds me of a recent commentator on FOX News stating socialism would turn the US into Venezuela... LOL

Re: Is everything an MLM

#167

Post by kristianc » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

bluetomcat wrote: post #53

Most of the economy in the so called "developed countries" is nowadays a zero-sum game between winners and losers. Seen from a macro perspective, it resembles a multi-agent system where independent agents compete to provide inessential products and services in exchange for being able to afford basic necessities like housing, food and child care. The finite resource that such companies are fighting for is people's att…

> Some win, others lose, but the status quo is that we are sweating from work in order to live in a world with smart refrigerators, automatic garage doors and pointless baby toys.

Where do you draw the line as to what is frivolous or not? Technology in the kitchen and the Pill enabled women to go to work and to delay childbirth to a time of their choosing. More to the point, who are you to decide on where the line is?

Re: Is everything an MLM

#168

Post by grawprog » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

sverige wrote: post #154

grawprog wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying they're wrong to have them. I'm pointing out spending $20,000 on some piece of stone for you to prepare your food on is fairly non-essential. Though again, they remove mountains for this, the shop produces a bunch of toxic, fish killing dust and sediment every day that's slowly killing me and my coworkers and destroying the planet. But my main point was, the things I create every day are not essential.…

I understand, but from that perspective, pretty much everything in "developed" countries is non-essential, including personal computers (whether desktop, laptop, smartphone, or tablet) and forums like this one to discuss such things. Think of the toxic waste created by all those computers, and the greenhouse gases created by shipping them all over the place! And to what end?

Yeah you're right. I think that's the point the gp comment was making originally. It's not just developed countries either. There are massive industries supporting millions of people that are non-essential. The problem is many of them actually do provide a large increase to quality of life. The improvement granite counters make is questionable, things like computers, phones, vehicles and other large scale damaging things, while not necessarily essential, do bring a dramatic improvement to quality of life and paradoxically enough allow people to make money providing.what is likely another non-essential service or product.

It's always been like this though. In the end, there's no reason for humans to have ever made most of the things we have over the millenia other than because we can and did. Once we had food and shelter and all these things pretty much taken care of, everythong else after was pretty much just for the fuck of it and we've always been at odds with the world and destroyed and altered our environments. The scale has just kept increasing to the point where there are massive global industries devoted to this.

At the same time, humanity still follows our basic survival insticts. We still have that inner subconcious mentality of scarcity when it comes to essentials. So it ends up being treated the same way in our economy as luxury goods and you end up in this situation where people are trading non-essential things for essential things.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#169

Post by seibelj » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

petra wrote: post #151

seibelj wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are coming from the socialist angle, which is a loaded word that will probably derail the conversation, but essentially you see the free market and competition as a waste of resources that harms society. The base argument is that we don’t need 80 brands of deodorant, and the fact we have so many is a colossal waste of resources, duplication, and moral failure of society. Whereas I see 80 brands of deodorant and t…

>> A government bureaucrat managing the country’s only deodorant factory could never possibly match the range of options and preferences that the market has provided me. There aren't only two options - the free market, or soviet russia. there are many more.

I would argue that preventing an individual from creating a new deodorant (or any typical consumer product) because "there is already enough of them" is a defining philosophical difference - either you are for freedom, or you are for collective coercion.

In my opinion, there are never enough deodorant brands. If a new entrant wants to make a new product, it will succeed or fail. It may compete on price or quality, it may drive out another brand, it may expand the market for deodorant by targeting a type of skin sensitivity that wasn't targeted before, it may do any number of things.

But there will never be enough deodorants. There can always be room for one more, and to prevent an individual for trying to make another is the moment we go on the path to Soviet Russia.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#170

Post by wool_gather » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #96

bluetomcat wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However the majority of society still does “normal” things like construction, manufacturing, sales, etc. "Normal" is when you build schools, hospitals, community centers and affordable houses and you produce only several kinds of refrigerator for the whole world, streamlining their production and servicing. Not when you construct factories, warehouses, office skyscrapers and shopping areas where those same goods wi…

You are coming from the socialist angle, which is a loaded word that will probably derail the conversation, but essentially you see the free market and competition as a waste of resources that harms society. The base argument is that we don’t need 80 brands of deodorant, and the fact we have so many is a colossal waste of resources, duplication, and moral failure of society. Whereas I see 80 brands of deodorant and t…

> I see 80 brands of deodorant [...] satisfy[ing] all manner of wants and needs

I'm not exactly in favor of a command economy, but seriously, how many of these 80 types of deodorant -- or any comparable consumer product -- are fundamentally different from one another, as opposed to being distinguished only by their branding and marketing?