Live data from Hacker News

On-Demand Startups Are Hemorrhaging Tens of Billions a Year

bloomberg.com

161–170 of 191 posts

Re: On-Demand Startups Are Hemorrhaging Tens of Billions a Year

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied financial history extensively. I wrote a paper in law school about the origins of the financial crisis and studied most economic and financial panics for 200 years. Monetary policy is rarely the most important factor. Trade policy, Fiscal policy (government spending across national, state, local and community), Regulatory incentives, technological changes whose importance is overestimated or underestimated,…

Cool, you wrote a paper in law school. I wrote two dissertations at UG and PG level. Monetary policy is essential, none of the things you mention are more important. Why? Because the boom can't occur without monetary policy (this is usually not obvious to people who have only looked at US financial history where capital markets are developed). Lots of reasons are given ex-post to rationalise these movements i.e. chan…

Lets keep it civil. You suggested to “read history”. I responded with evidence that I have in fact read relevant history thoughtfully and arrived at a different conclusion.

You provide no evidence that the factors I list matter less than monetary policy. I actually think the Greenspan Put (ie low interest rates to stimulate the economy) is a good example because many people, including, it seems, you, identify that as the most causal and important factor in creating the subprime crisis. This type of monetary policy is relatively new, yet asset bubbles have existed throughout history, even where there wasn’t even a unified currency let alone a Federal Reserve that set such policy.

In fact, evidence suggests that it was driven by a new financial business model, securitization, where loans were no longer held by banks but placed into a special purpose companies with shares of that SPV sold to investors.

Underwriting began to be meaningless as the companies originating loans wanted more volume because they got fees and held no risk. Investors were told that financial engineering meant these assets were AAA and safe.

Also throw in the fact that investment banks that were doing the financial structuring were no longer general partnerships (where individual partners are personally liable for partnership debt) but for the first time limited liability companies or corporations, and you get a clear picture of psychological, and new business model innovation, driving the bubble.

Similar story with the savings and loan crisis. Monetary policy is easy to blame until you look deeper. As in the financial crisis, you had financial innovation “Junk Bonds”, and regulation changes that let S&Ls take risks and deploy capital where they were previously restricted. All while monetary policy was tightened drastically, which should deflate asset bubbles not create them.

Further it is a good counter example to the Greenspan Put because monetary policy was exactly the opposite of Greenspan; Volker was jacking up interest rates to kill inflation and yet Savings and Loans were taking crazy risky bets and created real estate and junk bond bubbles. If you’re theory is valid, it should have a prediction on what monetary policy would create. Simply saying “it is the most important factor” gives no information. What happens when monetary policy is tight and rates are high. What happens when it’s the opposite.

Lastly, you seem to imply that someone controls monetary policy. The financial crisis made it clear that shadow banking, derivatives, and general flow of funds between banks was orders of magnitude bigger than any thing the Fed controlled. These monetary instruments were the real driver of the mortgage bubble, not any monetary stimulus through low interest rates.

Is monetary policy important. Yes. Does it explain why Uber and Lyft and every other unicorn are getting investment easily. No. Does it predict or cause most bubbles. No. I am open to being convinced otherwise.

Re: On-Demand Startups Are Hemorrhaging Tens of Billions a Year

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have given me hope! I will incorporate the latest hotness app tech stack, blockchain proof-of-strudel, drone delivery, and baking on-demand. Ycombinator here I come!

"Blockchain proof-of-strudel" is a fantastic little phrase. Well done. I'd use the :joy: emoji if HN would let me.

If necessary we can strudeliver it to you!

Re: On-Demand Startups Are Hemorrhaging Tens of Billions a Year

#164

It's a strange age to be living in. On the same day I've visited people in a WeWork, been driven around in an Uber, and had food delivered by Deliveroo. All of them blowing a huge load of money for the privilege. If they don't make back this money, it will represent a huge waste of resources. It's private money behind, but I still wonder whether this a reasonable way for the economy to run. For one, it means the litt…

If the "waste" is subsidizing services you actually want, is it really waste? It's more of a transfer from investors to landlords and drivers, who certainly wouldn't be as happy with less money.

I think the "waste" aspect of it comes from the crowding-out effect of capital allocation. Large sums going into the on-demand economy businesses means that there's far less available to invest in other types of business models.

That in turn may incentivize some businesses to "pivot" to an on-demand model purely to get their foot in the door with some investors, regardless of whether it makes business sense. Remember Kodak's stock skyrocketing in 2017 when they released KodakCoin? [1].

My opinion is that it is worrying that the line of thinking is that "the profits will come once they're a monopoly". The actions you take to be profitable are different from the ones you take to be a monopoly. Uber and Airbnb have used their millions to circumvent local laws and lobby for their interests. Microsoft in the 90s used their OS monopoly to prevent OEMs from bundling rival's software on their machines.

Monopolies might be great for shareholders but they're not good for consumers and they don't incentivize innovation. And here, I'm not talking about "natural monopolies" like utility companies and telecom network infrastructure.

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/30/technology/kodak-blockcha...

Re: On-Demand Startups Are Hemorrhaging Tens of Billions a Year

#165
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others emphasized, it's totally possible for investors to get some exit before a bust, hoisting off the risk onto more naive later investors. In short: create the appearance of a successful business, convince others (suckers) that it's a great investment, profit from selling your shares.

> As others emphasized, it's totally possible for investors to get some exit before a bust, hoisting off the risk onto more naive later investors. Yes it is possible. But people consistently overestimate how easy it is to do this. Would you bet billions of dollars on being able to fool other managers of billions of dollars? I wouldn't.

It's not that this is itself a straightforward strategy. It's that the possibility of this, even if odds aren't great are something that adds to the list of possible exits and thus reduces the total risk of an investment that isn't consciously intended to go this way.

Re: On-Demand Startups Are Hemorrhaging Tens of Billions a Year

#166
post #83
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is it bad though? Yes. Hence the 'mal' part. Investment should be going towards enterprises which produce actual value. If the only way you can produce value is by throwing away money through predatory pricing, then you aren't creating value. And so without any value to create, eventually you blow up and lose a bunch of people their money. When enough people lose enough money, people stop lending their money so free…

Of course they're creating value, Uber and the like is of great value for its users. The service is merely being subsidized by investors who believe in such practice. Is it a bad investment? Maybe, their investors did not think so and they were free to compare it with other options you deem obviously better, considering you're even saying Uber and the like are stealing these other business would-be money...

I tend to agree, these services create value.

I see 2 main factors as to why:

* federation

* cost

These two factors combined unlocked possibilities (ex: universal delivery service) or significantly improved existing industries (Uber app is far more convenient than finding then phoning the local taxi company and hoping blindly for the taxi to arrive).

Federation eases the use of the service as you don't have to either setup your own service (for example, hiring delivery guys for your restaurant) or find out the local services available (if they existed in the first place), and discover which one is good, which one is bad. The last decade development of mobile networks and smartphones was the catalyst for this evolution.

Cost is the other aspect, these services are cheaper than legacy alternatives. But this second aspect is key. On one hand, these services are losing money like crazy, on the other, they have a detrimental social impact, basically exploiting loopholes in the legislation to have "low rights" workers with no protection. But this will change at one point, laws and court decisions will close the loopholes, and the magic money tree will dry up, meaning these services will become significantly more expensive.

The question, when this will happen is: Was the federation improvement enough to sustain this industry long term? Or was the cost the major factor? If it's more of the second, these start-ups will mostly collapse, if it's more of the first they will become sustainable businesses (specially given it's easy to start using using these services, it's a bit harder to stop using them).

I'm still puzzled as to why these companies are losing so much money, and I cannot help but think these could have have been created with more reasonable losses for their first few years and now, they should nearly be cash flow positive.

Re: On-Demand Startups Are Hemorrhaging Tens of Billions a Year

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like a transfer from VCs and from desperate gig workers in the form of cheap labor to founders who get to write medium posts about how entrepreneurial they are.

VCs are not investing their own money.

Alright, but the point is the transfer is to founders for the most part from somewhere.

Re: On-Demand Startups Are Hemorrhaging Tens of Billions a Year

#168

As both a startup programmer and having worked in the financial industry, it's really hard to know how companies like these will be viewed by history. The technologist argument is: we are enduring losses, even large ones, in the short term so that we can bring inevitable future tools forward in time (i.e. "Of course everyone can get anything delivered on-demand in the future, so why not now!?") The value-based invest…

[deleted]

Re: On-Demand Startups Are Hemorrhaging Tens of Billions a Year

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hardly; it'll just be a transfer from VCs with too much money to everyone else in the economy. We could probably use more of that. The VCs are gambling with someone else's money though. They raise money from institutional investors: pension funds and insurance companies. Ultimately the little guy will pay via government bailouts, pension reductions, and higher insurance premiums.

I get they raise others' money, but which pension funds are being into this high risk stuff?

lots of them allocate a percentage to alternatives, and with a low-return environment, there was a push to keep doing it. However, there's also been a counter movement of pensions moving cash out of alternatives due to mediocre performance after fees are accounted for.

It's a mixed bag really, a lot of it has to do with pensions sometimes being run by untrained elected officials, or them buying whatever bs a pe or hedge fund shop is selling them.

Re: On-Demand Startups Are Hemorrhaging Tens of Billions a Year

#170
I've been working with Avis Rental Car. The CEO recently went to see the CEO of Uber. The vibe was that of a pauper begging from a King, which is odd because Avis is profitable and Uber is losing insane amounts of money. You'd think it would be the other way around, but everything nowadays is dominated by future expectations.
Post reply on HN