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I’m only making business card sized games now

frankforce.com

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Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally reject "hours of enjoyment" as a metric for value and depth of a purchased game. It's good to hear that you've had positive experiences, but the dark side is that for many it drifts towards being an addictive time-suck that eats money for nothing in return.

When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. Could someone who feels this way expand on why they have such a negative view on games? Just curious if it’s personal, cultural, or something else? Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull…

Hello, I'm a gamer/game-maker (table top, not digital) with some opinions.

Gamers are getting older. As in, the median age of people who identify as "gamers" is higher now than ever before. Part of this is because people who grew up with video games as children are now adults. People have always played games (chess is a great example) it's just what role gaming has played in the culture changes.

Since you now have a larger demographic of older gamers, you're going to start hearing more voices echoing this. When I was in college, I could spend 20+ hours a week playing video games until 3 AM. Now that I'm older and married I'm lucky if I get 5 hours a week for non-mobile games. I'm going to have a different evaluation of a title. The last thing I want is to buy a shiny new FPS just to get pwnd repeatedly by some 14 year old who keeps tbagging me and screaming racist taunts. Loot crates and pay-to-win feels gross because I don't want to dump money that I could be using for home repairs on add-ons for my toys.

I'm not anti-games. I love games. But I can hate tons of aspects of the games (like I mentioned above) or call out the toxicity of gamer culture and still be a part of it. This is a stark contrast to 15 years ago when we all needed to band together to explain that games can be art and that FPSs to lead to school shootings.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#162
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My grandfather believes that video games are a "scourge" for young men today. I used to think he was old-fashioned for believing this, but I have come around to agreeing with him. I wasted a large chunk of my life on Counterstrike, Arma 3, DayZ Mod, PUBG, and countless console games. _Thousands_ of hours in total. For me, games were more than an escape or simply a way to unwind. For me, they were a well-hidden addict…

> I wasted a large chunk of my life on Counterstrike, Arma 3, DayZ Mod, PUBG, and countless console games. _Thousands_ of hours in total. For me, games were more than an escape or simply a way to unwind. For me, they were a well-hidden addiction. They were an obstacle to reaching my potential. I can't see myself going back to games again and still being as happy as I am now. Substitute "football" or "drinking with fr…

Background: I have been playing video games for 25 odd years now. It has highly reduced, I revert to a bunch of youtube let's plays now.

- Equating games to watching football is disingenuous at best. Games tire you out mentally. I liked games because it gave me a thousand things to track at once and optimize (big fan of cataclysm DDA/Aurora/factorio/rimworld). But that came at a cost - am a zombie at the end of the session, fully drained. (Definitely happy). This is a big reason why I switched to watching videos instead. I definitely don't have the mental bandwidth for this.

- equating videogames to outdoor activities is again disingenuous. Outdoor activities have a definite social component to them (NO - eve didn't replicate this to even a small extent). Not to mention the health benefits. I know the general world is going towards more of a 'controlled experience', but I am still a strong believer in outdoors and semi-controlled experiences.

- Video games and books are definitely escapism. But fiction just doesn't engage your mind in the same way. Most non-fiction books either I will have to dedicate study time for it OR just fall asleep 30 pages in. All the motor function engagement and quick dopamine hits are just not the same in books.

I am not against video games, my thousands of steam / youtube hours should make that clear. BUT diluting the effect of them just makes the argument muddled.

IMO Video games are essentially alcohol without the liver-effects. Yeah it's a lot of fun in moderation if you are in control (OR if it doesn't pull you in like it does to addictive personalities) but they can pull you down a rabbit hole too deep to climb out of.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#164
Brings back memories of the little "ten liner" games and other toys in Electron User magazines and similar.

Sometimes one-liner examples (it was surprising how much you could squeeze out of 253 bytes of BBC Basic).

Anyone with back-issues of that bread of magazine from back then has a little trove of inspiration for this sort of thing.

You can do a lot with small amounts of code, especially if you allow the use of complex libraries and only count the include() & calls in the byte-/character-count rather than including the whole size of the library.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#165
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. HN has many grown-ups, which might skew it a little from the "games all the time are great / custom game rig" demographic. > Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull as much value as pos…

It's an old and tired adage by this point but it seems it falls to me to be the "time spent doing something you enjoy is never wasted" guy this time around.

Old and tired is OK, but this one to me looks invalid too.

I can't say of anybody's personal goals, but "time spent doing something [one] enjoys" is often wasted.

First, because every time you spent has an opportunity cost.

Second, because empirically peoples' future self often doesn't have the same priorities, and occasionally finds "time spend doing something they enjoyed" wasted and a bad choice.

How many regret e.g. wasting too much time gaming when they should have been e.g. studying or practicing, when they turn 25 and have nothing to show for it?

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#166
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve held a similar opinion for a long time now, but not from an anti-game perspective; enjoyment is simply an overloaded term, and trivial to hack (want to make a nearly any mediocre game enjoyable? Play it with friends.) It often just amounts to “I was content to lose N hours into it”, which on its own is a pretty worthless statement (and if its the only statement, a pretty damning one). Games are often treated as,…

> little about how not to design a competitive game I’d love to hear more about this, although I guess it’s a bit off topic... I played LoL for a while, but never too obsessively or heavily. It was mainly an activity to share with some coworkers so I suppose, like you say, it wasn’t so much about the game itself. I certainly didn’t play it competitively, so maybe that’s why I don’t see it as bad as you make it sound.…

>I’d love to hear more about this, although I guess it’s a bit off topic...

I'm not sure HN is the place to discuss such things, and I'm not sure even that interesting – the major gripes are mostly obvious, but fundamental; eg reliance on champion-global external systems like summoner spells, runes and whatever they call their current system, which all make it extremely difficult to balance things locally. They've been consistently getting better at it. Lootboxes that is, not game design.

>find incredibly interesting on a multitude of levels are the FROM SOFTWARE games.

FROM is an interesting company, because they were never meant to be popular. They were happy wiling away in their obscurity, constantly iterating on the same niche games (King's Field, Armored Core, etc), until DeS became an accidental hit; I'm not sure the popularity was good for them – the games are misunderstood as simply "difficult" (typically compared to "arcade difficult", but they're not; they're punishing, they trick you, and require a minimal degree of patience that can be found in almost no other modern game, but they eventually push you towards success. Arcade difficult is a vastly different beast, asking for pixel-perfect input, few if any alternative strategies, repetitive play and exceptional punishment to wring those juicy quarters out of you), and that moniker apparently confused From's weaker teams, leading to the mess of DaS 2/3. Annoyingly, their Souls success seems to eaten Armored Core's lunch too.

Probably the most amazing thing about FROM is that they actually learn from their previous work. You can look at King's Field -> DaS lineage and see actual, consistent improvement. Even when they sidestep into Bloodborne and Sekiro, they manage to take lessons with them (and make new mistakes).

But yeah, the industry has its companies and its auteurs. Platinum, Grasshopper Studio, From Software, Clover, iD, Blizzard North, Sid Meier, Kojima, Carmack, Ford & Reichie, Tarn/Zach Adams, (From & Nintendo's) Miyazaki, Mikami, etc. And you'll consistently find interesting output from them, and games worth their salt (Carmack is a bit funny because he doesn't really give a shit about games, his stuff is always technically interesting, and sometimes game-interesting).

But the annoying thing is that that you can take probably 90% of games today, and find something that did the same thing better 20 years ago. Hell, I'm beginning to doubt most game designers are even aware games existed before 2000.

The only thing we're making any real progress on is graphics.. and thats just towards realism. We've lost a lot in style. I mean hell, it's difficult to find games where player interaction is even a base concept of its design, and thats the primary thing games introduce as a medium!

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I'm the author of the post. I actually am an indie dev myself and have many smallish games as well as worked in AAA for years. I think indie developers tend to get it right more often, but anyone can fall into the wrong approach of over-complicating their games with needless features that actually detract from the fun. Like take for example RDR2. Imagine if instead of having all those silly mini-games, they just…

I think the code length restriction is a great way to distill a game concept into the "core fun", which is what more people should be focusing on when making them IMHO. If you go on say /r/gamedev, you'll see all kinds of posts of people stuck down rabbit holes of negligible design, like how to make the best hair physics. A lone developer could spend a year's worth of free time implementing things that don't make the…

I think you get that kind of potential to get stuck on inconsequential details in any design. It happens in video game design of course, but also board game design, and graphic design, and software design in general, among many other fields. Most general design guides encourage iteration and refinement, and when it comes to game design specifically that comes across as the push for frequent prototypes and playtests so you can refine the mechanics. (In the software world it often comes across as the "minimum viable product" concept.) I think people who get stuck on details in ways like you mentioned are people who never learned this, whether self taught or formally educated, or they're forgetting those tenets of design.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it ASCII or Unicold?

That's irrelevant. Pretty much everyone calls text games "ASCII" regardless of the character set used. Take Dwarf Fortress, which uses an extended ASCII character set (code page 437).

cough, cough... UniCOLD

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are clear returns there: immersion in nature, cardiovascular/muscular/mental fitness, tolerance to pain, social bonding, etc.

> immersion in nature That's a benefit for those who consider it a benefit. I personally don't find this interesting. > social bonding This applies to plenty of videogames as well - both directly to multiplayer, and to singleplayer games as social objects for discussions with other people. > cardiovascular/muscular/mental fitness, tolerance to pain In the same sense, videogames exercise your reaction time, complex re…

> That's a benefit for those who consider it a benefit.

Some reading on green exercise:

http://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/featurednews/title_543531_en.ht...

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