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The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

theatlantic.com

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Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#161

Post by ThomPete »

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

Getting an expansive view of human knowledge is not done by the universities quite the contrary. Furthermore the expansive view isn't really interesting if you don't know how to apply it to something.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#162

Post by intopieces »

ceej01 wrote: post #158
intopieces wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will cars ever be automated? Who knows, but there’s a reason Uber drivers make less than cabbies did 10 years ago. Are you willing to bet the next 40 years of your working life on something not being automated?

Yes, cars are on there way to be automated. Google, Apple, Tesla and other big tech companies are all pouring millions of dollars into research in order to have cars drive themselves. For some jobs, automation will be a concern for those workers. I don't think its a number one concern for a lot of people but all jobs lie on a spectrum of how possible/soon they can be done by a machine. That pressure is only going to…

>college-educated jobs are some of the most likely to be automated by machines in the near future

The college educated are most prepared to shift their career to adjust. A broad-based education where students develop emotional intelligence, learning agility (the ability to learn new tasks), and leadership skills is more likely to carry them through massive disruptions in industries.

And if it doesn’t - they can always go learn a trade. Getting into and completing a four year degree after entering the workforce, having children, buying a house, is much more difficult.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#163

Post by slavik81 »

finder83 wrote: post #56
ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

Except that's what high school should be. And let's face it, general studies courses that make up that "expansive view" of college really are repeats of high school with slightly more work, at least if you take honors classes in high school. And if that expansive knowledge is being surrounded by peers who are in pursuit of higher learning...that's not the typical college experience these days. High school is becoming…

For example, the journeyman was historically required to travel and broaden their skills to advance to master. Even today, breadth of experience remains an expectation for journeymen.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#164

Post by jl2718 »

It's not just a stigma; school is a structural mechanism to create professional options, and it's nearly impossible to get back into once you leave it. You need recent letters of recommendation from a teacher/professor to get into a good program. Pure gatekeeping. Good luck, kid.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#165

Post by Broken_Hippo »

finder83 wrote: post #56
ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

Except that's what high school should be. And let's face it, general studies courses that make up that "expansive view" of college really are repeats of high school with slightly more work, at least if you take honors classes in high school. And if that expansive knowledge is being surrounded by peers who are in pursuit of higher learning...that's not the typical college experience these days. High school is becoming…

* We've lowered expectations and extended adolescence so much that we no longer expect 18 year olds to be mature and capable adults, which shouldn't be the case.*

I'm not even sure this is the case. We (Americans) don't allow an 18 year old to have any sort of alcohol without potentially ruining their adult lives. We didn't let folks vote until 21, but there was an issue with drafts and things. My mother remembers being excited that she was going to vote at 18 instead of 21 - my mother is almost 60. It wasn't that long ago that we didn't allow women to get loans without a spouse, brother, or father signing for it. Women were never really proper adults.

American parents can still be pretty decisive on a college student's ability to go to college simply by refusing to release tax returns to the student. I'm not even sure folks can go to school without them. They certainly won't get loans.

A young person's life is just barely their own at 18, and they don't have full rights of adulthood.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#166

Post by Broken_Hippo »

dustindiamond wrote: post #135
zanny wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that expansive view should be coming way, way earlier than high school. How about before you beat the curiosity and sense of wonder out of 5-8 year olds with times tables, memorizing the dates presidents were born, and repeating the word "prepositional phrase" a thousand times - that would be a good time to start.

Should parents have no responsibility in this regard? It isn’t the elementary school’s child.

1. Kids also learn through play and downtime and simply going with the adult to do things.

2. Too much schooling is detrimental to learning.

3. Most parents aren't trained in teaching. If we expect a parent to teach a child formal stuff, perhaps we should train the parents on how to do these things.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#167

Post by ceej01 »

intopieces wrote: post #162
ceej01 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, cars are on there way to be automated. Google, Apple, Tesla and other big tech companies are all pouring millions of dollars into research in order to have cars drive themselves. For some jobs, automation will be a concern for those workers. I don't think its a number one concern for a lot of people but all jobs lie on a spectrum of how possible/soon they can be done by a machine. That pressure is only going to…

>college-educated jobs are some of the most likely to be automated by machines in the near future The college educated are most prepared to shift their career to adjust. A broad-based education where students develop emotional intelligence, learning agility (the ability to learn new tasks), and leadership skills is more likely to carry them through massive disruptions in industries. And if it doesn’t - they can alway…

>where students develop emotional intelligence, learning agility (the ability to learn new tasks), and leadership skills

Based on my experiences, this makes me laugh... I definitely feel that most colleges fail at this or at least achieve magnitudes lower than what we should want them to do for our students. And I don't see how skilled laboured positions don't or can't teach these skills as well.

The line of work is so broad for an electrician, if there are massive disruptions in the industry, the ones who are able to/have a desire to adapt will adapt. I don't believe just simply because you have a degree you will fair better from changes than someone who has same years of experience in skilled labour.

I agree with you that we live in a social system in America that makes it very difficult to go back to school if you are pretty set in life. I think similar problems also applies to getting a masters degree later in life as well.

-Thank you for the discussion.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#168

Post by taurath »

finder83 wrote: post #56
ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

Except that's what high school should be. And let's face it, general studies courses that make up that "expansive view" of college really are repeats of high school with slightly more work, at least if you take honors classes in high school. And if that expansive knowledge is being surrounded by peers who are in pursuit of higher learning...that's not the typical college experience these days. High school is becoming…

College has the time to add a lot more nuance. People graduate high school with relatively basic understanding of communication, history and economics - and those basic understandings aren’t enough to expose you to the nuances of the world. I’ve always felt like high school gives you just enough to have a very simple worldview, and college starts you on a path to realize that everything is more complicated than you thought.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#169

Post by pesmhey »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #165
finder83 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that's what high school should be. And let's face it, general studies courses that make up that "expansive view" of college really are repeats of high school with slightly more work, at least if you take honors classes in high school. And if that expansive knowledge is being surrounded by peers who are in pursuit of higher learning...that's not the typical college experience these days. High school is becoming…

* We've lowered expectations and extended adolescence so much that we no longer expect 18 year olds to be mature and capable adults, which shouldn't be the case.* I'm not even sure this is the case. We (Americans) don't allow an 18 year old to have any sort of alcohol without potentially ruining their adult lives. We didn't let folks vote until 21, but there was an issue with drafts and things. My mother remembers be…

Neotony has been an absolutely integral aspect of homo sapiens’ evolution. We’re fine.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#170

Post by yocheckit »

snazz wrote: post #82
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand this - I didn't assume that the student would start at age zero. If we're going into vocational training in their teen years, they'll have to starting teaching the classics and philosophy to tweens.

Oh. I see what you mean, although I’m not convinced that 12-year-olds couldn’t handle these topics, at least at a slower pace.

I went to a school where they did try to introduce these subjects to us from a young age. I'm talking the age of 10 onward and it really was pointless.

Of course you can teach things about Roman Legions, or Athenian ships etc, but if you want to debate and discuss the ideas and foundations of these civilizations (and any philosophy) I honestly think you are fighting an uphill battle until at least 17-18.

Your mind is just not developed enough to handle the kind of ambiguitiy and complexity needed to analyse and judge these ideas. Many people never even reach this ability during university and just parrot ideas that are told to them.

There is a reason teaching children to adhere to a religion from a young age is so controversial in some circles.

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