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Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

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Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#161

Post by CodeMage »

darawk wrote: post #26

This is such nonsense. First of all, there are absolutely people who come from dirt poverty and become wildly successful. Second of all, plenty of people receive lots of help from their parents and amount to precisely nothing. IMO it's fair to refer to your success as "self made" if you exceed the median success level of your class peer group by a substantial margin. If you immigrate from Africa with nothing, and you…

> I feel like this trope that self-made success is a myth comes almost entirely from people like the author of this article. People who were born with lots of advantages, who still couldn't hack it. They want to justify their own failure to live up to their family's expectations by tearing other people down.

And there we go. That kind of attitude is why this trope was created initially.

The problem people have with "self-made success" trope is that the self-made success story of someone with severe disadvantages is being equated, on an astoundingly regular basis, with the success of people with substantial advantages. That's how Bill Gates and Arnold Schwarzenegger are both dubbed "self-made" successes, despite their rather different histories.

Even worse, it is being used to justify, defend and perpetuate inequality, by convincing everyone that the American Dream is that "anyone can make it". After all, if such-and-such person coming from dirt poor origins could become wildly successful, anyone can. Therefore, we must strive at all costs to avoid removing "incentives" that motivate people to reach for that elusive success.

Naturally, this will generate resistance, and rightfully so. Despite the endless propaganda that permeates the fabric of our society, the self-made success story of Bill Gates is not the same thing as that of John Paul DeJoria.

So yeah, I agree with you in one aspect: the self-made success is not a myth. It's something much worse -- it's propaganda.

It brings to mind that quote by Anatole France: "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#162

Post by darawk »

CodeMage wrote: post #161
darawk wrote: post #26

This is such nonsense. First of all, there are absolutely people who come from dirt poverty and become wildly successful. Second of all, plenty of people receive lots of help from their parents and amount to precisely nothing. IMO it's fair to refer to your success as "self made" if you exceed the median success level of your class peer group by a substantial margin. If you immigrate from Africa with nothing, and you…

> I feel like this trope that self-made success is a myth comes almost entirely from people like the author of this article. People who were born with lots of advantages, who still couldn't hack it. They want to justify their own failure to live up to their family's expectations by tearing other people down. And there we go. That kind of attitude is why this trope was created initially. The problem people have with "…

> The problem people have with "self-made success" trope is that the self-made success story of someone with severe disadvantages is being equated, on an astoundingly regular basis, with the success of people with substantial advantages. That's how Bill Gates and Arnold Schwarzenegger are both dubbed "self-made" successes, despite their rather different histories.

They are both self-made success stories. Schwarzenegger even moreso than Gates.

> Even worse, it is being used to justify, defend and perpetuate inequality, by convincing everyone that the American Dream is that "anyone can make it". After all, if such-and-such person coming from dirt poor origins could become wildly successful, anyone can. Therefore, we must strive at all costs to avoid removing "incentives" that motivate people to reach for that elusive success.

Anyone can make it. Not everyone can be Bill Gates or Arnold Schwarzenegger, but it is abundantly clear that anyone willing to put in the time and effort can make it into a well compensated profession. Software engineering, medicine, law, these are all things that an average person willing to dedicate themselves can learn and excel at. If you come from nothing, i'd say getting into any of those professions more than qualifies for "making it".

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#163

Post by darawk »

foldr wrote: post #157
darawk wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, then, calculate the t-statistic of your income level with respect to your starting cohort then, if you want to be rigorous about it. I think my point stands.

That does nothing to show that it's not down to luck. By your logic, anyone who wins the lottery can claim to be "self made" (since so few other ticket holders had anywhere near the same degree of success).

It is a necessary but not sufficient condition. In determining whether someone is self-made, you'd want to examine conditions like that. That being said, it is absolutely not the case that it "does nothing" to show it's not down to luck. Filtering by that criteria substantially increases the probability of someone being 'self-made'.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#164

Post by heedlessly3 »

darawk wrote: post #26

This is such nonsense. First of all, there are absolutely people who come from dirt poverty and become wildly successful. Second of all, plenty of people receive lots of help from their parents and amount to precisely nothing. IMO it's fair to refer to your success as "self made" if you exceed the median success level of your class peer group by a substantial margin. If you immigrate from Africa with nothing, and you…

Oprah Winfrey is the best example of self-made success.

Black woman born to an unwed single teenage mother, grew up in the projects to a billionaire.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#165

Post by darawk »

danans wrote: post #122
darawk wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree. What I disagree with is the people that want to dismiss Gates success completely because his family had some money. Tens of thousands of kids have the same background that he did, but don't do anything half as incredible as starting Microsoft. While Gates should acknowledge the advantages he's had, I don't think it's unfair or unreasonable for him to feel pretty good about what he's accomplished.

> What I disagree with is the people that want to dismiss Gates success completely because his family had some money. I don't know who you are talking to, but I've only heard his family's wealth discussed in the context of people discouraging young adults from attending or completing university, on the example of Gates. The point being that his family's wealth gave him exposure to technology and social networks that…

Are you reading the other comments in this thread? I see people making that argument in this very comment's section. I wish that they weren't. Certainly he had advantages that other kids didn't have, and both he and society should acknowledge that. But it doesn't take away a whole lot from what he's accomplished, IMO.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#166

Post by EliRivers »

lwhalen wrote: post #146
EliRivers wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I was born poor, and then someone gives me a bunch of money, by this argument I am self-made.

Yeah, that's what we call "a job". Make yourself useful to a rich enough person or group of people, they'll "give you a bunch of money" and call it a "salary".

Yeah, that's what we call "passive aggressive childishness". Or perhaps I need to really spell it out to you. Under this definition, if I am born poor and someone gives me, free and for gratis, with no obligation or return on my part, a big pile of money, I am self-made.

Like that nice man who let George Clooney sleep on his couch for a while, and Clooney came back twenty years later and gave him a million dollars. Self-made. Or those people who win the lottery. Self-made. Or those people who inherit a fortune from a relative who didn't give them spit while they were alive. Self-made. Or a lady born in 1950 in South Korea, in a village without electricity, whose grandson now maintains her in an eye-wateringly expensive flat in Seoul because he rode the rise of South Korea to riches. She's self-made too.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#167

Post by wardbradt »

Isamu wrote: post #2

>She told me, “I was curious, but I don't know how a single person in America who doesn't have family money could buy anything, I really don’t, if they're not working in finance or they're not a doctor. ” Easy, there are vast areas of America where housing is more affordable. I certainly got zero cash from family when I bought a home. My family put money into giving me food and shelter growing up though. This is kind…

Are you talking about "View from 9th Avenue" [1]? If so, that is a great analogy because it depicts no housing in the rest of the country.

[1] https://condenaststore.com/featured/view-from-9th-avenue-sau...

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#168

Post by DoreenMichele »

I spent nearly six years homeless. During that time, I basically taught myself to make money online.

I still don't have much, but I'm off the street. I read articles like this and imagine a future where I'm wealthy and powerful and everyone will talk about my privileged background and pooh pooh the idea that I'm self made.

If I ever figure out how to address affordable housing in some meaningful way, no one will laud me as a champion of the poor and downtrodden. No, they will most likely label me a slumlord.

Of course, no one is entirely self made. Of course, it's helpful to know what resources were genuinely involved in actually creating x, y or z. You have no hope of doing something similar if you have what amounts to misinformation about how it got done.

But we value the concept of a self made person because we've all had to fight to be free. We all struggle to take the hand life dealt us and turn it into a thing we desire. We all look to others who somehow accomplished that for clues to find our way into the unmapped future and try to make it a thing we don't loathe overly much.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#169

Post by jameane »

simonsarris wrote: post #155
honkycat wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First of all, there are absolutely people who come from dirty poverty and become wildly successful. Second of all, plenty of people receive lots of help from their parents and amount to precisely nothing. There are way more people who are born wealthy and continue being wealthy. There are way more people who go from poor to poor. Social mobility is piss poor right now in the US. If "having a nice family and a wonde…

[some person] had a TON of opportunity and privilege funneled to him from his parents. What percentage of those persons became billionaires? Is it less than 0.1%? (What percentage of them die broke? I bet greater than 1%)

No one is saying Bill Gates didn't earn his success. But we can't deny that having access to certain levels of privlege makes success much more probably than for those without those advantages.

With Bill Gates' upbringing, it is quite unlikely he would have struggled with housing insecurity.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#170

Post by fzeroracer »

foldr wrote: post #157
darawk wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, then, calculate the t-statistic of your income level with respect to your starting cohort then, if you want to be rigorous about it. I think my point stands.

That does nothing to show that it's not down to luck. By your logic, anyone who wins the lottery can claim to be "self made" (since so few other ticket holders had anywhere near the same degree of success).

I think it's obvious that someone who won the lottery did so purely out of their own hard work. Only someone with the proper knowledge and skills would be able to execute on the narrow opportunity of winning the lottery and be willing to take said opportunity in the first place.
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