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As the U.S. fantasizes, the rest of the world builds new transport system (2017)

thetransportpolitic.com

161–170 of 171 posts

Re: As the U.S. fantasizes, the rest of the world builds new transport system (2017)

#161

As an American that live in France for several years, the high-speed trains were great for certain trips, but they wouldn't work in the U.S. because they are not as efficient. By efficiency I mean cost over time. For instance, to go from Paris to Bordeaux by car is about 8 hours, the price of gas is $5/gal and all the freeways are toll roads. Total trip would be about the same to fly. To Fly is about $500 for one-hou…

I don't think this impacts your argument but I don't think your numbers are a good illustration of price/time.

- Paris to Bordeaux by plane is $430 (380EUR) right now, 2 days before Christmas but if you look at a less interesting time of year, like February, most days you're looking at $71 (62EUR) (per ITA Matrix with prices in EUR and Paris as sales city).

- The flight itself is only 75 minutes but right now, it takes 45 minutes to get from Paris to CDG and 25 minutes from BOD to Bordeaux, for a total of 145 minutes travel time. Add at least say half an hour to get through security and get to your gate and you're at 175 minutes total trip time.

- Paris to Bordeaux by train is $126 (111EUR) right now but like air, is much cheaper at a less interesting time of year. Most of January is only $18 (16 EUR) (per oui.sncf).

- It takes 153 minutes from the center of Paris to the center of Bordeaux by train (metro to Gare Montparnasse, then TGV to Bordeaux).

So right now, you're looking at $126 + 153 minutes for train or $430 + 175 minutes by plane. Later, you're looking at $18 + 153 minutes by train or $71 + 175 minutes by plane.

For this particular trip, I think the train is clearly a winner.

Re: As the U.S. fantasizes, the rest of the world builds new transport system (2017)

#162
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are all in China. Wikipedia tells me that max achievable speed in regular service in every country except China is 320km/h. China does 350km/h, but you need to be traveling at quite a long distance for a measly 30km/h increase in speed to be worth it, and China runs much longer high speed rail services than other countries (Beijing to Hong Kong is 9 hours). Besides, the more important thing is average speed. Ac…

> Those are all in China You're probably right. America shouldn't aim to achieve speeds of high speed rail in ~2025 that China achieved in ~2015. That's aiming too high. Best to aim lower so we don't disappoint anyone.

The most painful part of high-speed-rail, particularly at higher speeds, is the land acquisition costs; minimum curve radius grows exponentially as speed rises, so costs escalate as speed gets higher. China cares far less about compensating property owners for fair value, which is why they can engineer such high speed lines in the first place.

We are talking about the difference between 217MPH and 200MPH. The total travel time saved between Boston and Washington by an additional 17MPH is a whopping six minutes with the generous assumption that you start right off the bat at top speed and maintain it the entire trip. If saving six minutes will cost billions or tens of billions of dollars, why bother with such a marginal improvement, when you could spend those billions on literally anything else from housing to healthcare to upgrading the power grid?

Re: As the U.S. fantasizes, the rest of the world builds new transport system (2017)

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you increase speed, you need to take turns at larger and larger curves to reduce g-forces on passengers, and the curve radius increases exponentially vs speed. The bigger the curve, the more land you need to buy, and depending on which country you're in property rights extend above and below the land so the cost is unavoidable. (If you can avoid it by going underground or overground, the cost of tunneling and brid…

> and the curve radius increases exponentially vs speed. It's merely quadratic if I recall correctly

Oops, I misspoke. But yeah, it's a non-linear increase in costs that results in increasingly marginal time savings.

Re: As the U.S. fantasizes, the rest of the world builds new transport system (2017)

#164
post #105
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that number calculated?

AAA and others have good data (usually for new cars, though, so depreciation makes it $0.30-0.40/mi total). https://therideshareguy.com/is-a-toyota-prius-the-best-car-f... has a 2011 and 2016 Prius.

I haven't gotten a chance to read through that yet, but even if a Prius is the best ridesharing car, i doubt the best car for an Uber driver and the best car for someone driving 10 miles to and from work five days a week are going to be the same. You'd have to drive a real lot to have the increase in gas mileage cancel out the higher purchase price and higher insurance costs vs a basic econocar.

Re: As the U.S. fantasizes, the rest of the world builds new transport system (2017)

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't the US have a good regional high speed rail network?

The US does not have political subdivision at the regional level (except as might be reflected at the state level of political subdivision). For example, New England is not a political subdivision while California might be considered one incidentally. At the state level, a high speed rail will never benefit most residents. For example, a "northeast corridor" line is great for Philadelphia, Manhattan, and Boston. does…

I don't think it can be as simple as that because the US did have a good passenger rail system up to the 1950s, with both express limited service and local lines, without formal regional governments.

Not that there needs to be a formal regional government. The US has interstate compacts for situations like this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_compact even comments "these agreements create a new governmental agency which is responsible for administering or improving some shared resource such as ... public transportation infrastructure".

It helpfully links to https://www.csg.org/NCIC/MidwestInterstatePassengerRailCompa... - "the Midwest Interstate Passenger Rail Compact brings together state leaders from across the region to advocate for passenger rail improvements. Formed by compact agreement in 2000, the compact's current members are Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota and Wisconsin."

and http://www.drpt.virginia.gov/rail/major-initiatives/va-nc-hi... "The Virginia-North Carolina High Speed Rail Compact was authorized by the Congress and established through legislation enacted by the Virginia and North Carolina General Assemblies. The purpose of the Compact is to examine and discuss strategies to advance multi-state high speed rail initiatives."

Re: As the U.S. fantasizes, the rest of the world builds new transport system (2017)

#166
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author’s point does not stand. No one is saying build high-speed rail between cities that are extremely far apart. Find the handful of places where it does make sense then build there. If it only makes sense in 4 locations then build there. You can safely ignore the other 20 locations.

Then there is the argument why should the rest of the country pay for something that will only be used in the coasts or densely populated areas?

You mean cost contribution should be calculated strictly by area, independent of how many people live in the area? How would that be fair?

Re: As the U.S. fantasizes, the rest of the world builds new transport system (2017)

#167
post #123
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We might have bit the bullet and done it with highways back in the day for whatever reason, today the reasoning for doing the same thing may not apply and the cost unjustified. So the rational, cost-effective solution would have been not to have any connection at all?

I'm leaning towards a yes but then again I wasn't there at the time.

(edit) How would people travel between those cities then?

Re: As the U.S. fantasizes, the rest of the world builds new transport system (2017)

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US does not have political subdivision at the regional level (except as might be reflected at the state level of political subdivision). For example, New England is not a political subdivision while California might be considered one incidentally. At the state level, a high speed rail will never benefit most residents. For example, a "northeast corridor" line is great for Philadelphia, Manhattan, and Boston. does…

I don't think it can be as simple as that because the US did have a good passenger rail system up to the 1950s, with both express limited service and local lines, without formal regional governments. Not that there needs to be a formal regional government. The US has interstate compacts for situations like this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_compact even comments "these agreements create a new governmental…

+ Relative to the current state of US passenger rail service, there is a plausible argument that the 1950's were better. Relative to the current state and common imaginary future states, 1950's rail is less plausibly a good model for transportation infrastructure today. The economics make a fine grained network with an acceptable level of service untenable...heck facts on the ground suggest the economics make a course grained network with an acceptable level of service generally untenable. A course grained passenger rail network with tenable economics is the exception.

+ A fine grained passenger rail network still requires about all the roads we have now. The local restaurant needs a pallet of french fries not a boxcar's worth.

+ Neither of the example compacts has executive authority over the participating states. Advocacy and study, only. They only allow states to coordinate efforts with respect to federal programs. MIRPC can lobby for continued Amtrack support [1]. It can't obtain right of way and lay track.

[1]: http://miprc.org/News/miprc-to-congress-fra-amtrak-sustain-t...

Re: As the U.S. fantasizes, the rest of the world builds new transport system (2017)

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it can be as simple as that because the US did have a good passenger rail system up to the 1950s, with both express limited service and local lines, without formal regional governments. Not that there needs to be a formal regional government. The US has interstate compacts for situations like this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_compact even comments "these agreements create a new governmental…

+ Relative to the current state of US passenger rail service, there is a plausible argument that the 1950's were better. Relative to the current state and common imaginary future states, 1950's rail is less plausibly a good model for transportation infrastructure today. The economics make a fine grained network with an acceptable level of service untenable...heck facts on the ground suggest the economics make a cours…

My intent with "a good passenger rail system" was to respond to your earlier statement "a high speed rail will never benefit most residents", and not focus on "better".

An express limited service in the 1940s did not benefit most residents, compared to a local service, in a similar way to high speed service now.

My example of those two compacts was to show that supra-state organizations can exist with transport goals in mind. As examples of more effective compacts, the Great Lakes Compact.

There is no need for executive authority over participating states. International agreements occur between different countries even without an organization with executive authority over those countries.

Case in point: the Basel tram network provides international service, which started in 1900 with service to the German Empire. Wilhelm II didn't have executive authority over Basel, nor Switzerland over then-Sankt-Ludwig.

Re: As the U.S. fantasizes, the rest of the world builds new transport system (2017)

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+ Relative to the current state of US passenger rail service, there is a plausible argument that the 1950's were better. Relative to the current state and common imaginary future states, 1950's rail is less plausibly a good model for transportation infrastructure today. The economics make a fine grained network with an acceptable level of service untenable...heck facts on the ground suggest the economics make a cours…

My intent with "a good passenger rail system" was to respond to your earlier statement "a high speed rail will never benefit most residents", and not focus on "better". An express limited service in the 1940s did not benefit most residents, compared to a local service, in a similar way to high speed service now. My example of those two compacts was to show that supra-state organizations can exist with transport goals…

+ My opinion about the utility of compacts is that there is no evidence on the ground that they will lead to interstate high speed rail networks. Beyond evidence on the ground, the political requirements for interstate high speed rail is sustained political support for the network in each state in the network. Assigning a probability (p) of sustained political support to each state (S) in an interstate network (IN), we have:

  pIN = pS(1) x pS(2)...pS(n)
I consider intrastate high speed rail an optimistic proxy for sustained political support for interstate high speed rail. In general, that means pS(i) approximates zero for all 1 intrastate high speed rail obtain.

+ The Great Lakes Compact is legally binding. It required approval by each state's legislature. To me, the politics are radically different. The compact prevents states from damage by other states. It exists to avoid a tragedy of the commons where people may die. Rail networks don't have that.

+ I considered diving into the differences between the 1940's and today as they relate to passenger rail networks in my previous comment.

Local passenger rail isn't viable because most rural communities have much lower populations today than in the first half of the 20th century and because transportation alternatives are much better in rural areas. Hopefully, we agree on the second point.

The demographic shift in rural areas has a strong labor component related to mechanization of agriculture. In the midwest, a farm family in 1920 could work about a quarter section of corn (160 acres). Today a family can work about two sections (1280 acres). A small town rail station in 1930 might have served a township with 3000 residents. Now it might serve 1000.

In the South's cotton country, the demographics are even more substantial. In 1940 a share cropper family could work about 20 acres. Mechanization moved major cotton production to large fields in places like Texas. The twenty acre fields were mostly converted to timber and the share cropper shacks left to decay. Small towns that once were the center for several thousand locals are now empty buildings with a few hundred locals nearby.

Local rail in rural areas is economically untenable. The express trains of 1950 worked because there were finer grained networks feeding it. Today, the fine grained network for rail is the same as for air and automobile. It's the automobile.

That's why intrastate high speed rail isn't being built. The proposed Orlando-Tampa route still required a car to get from Azalea Park to the Orlando station and another car to get from the Tampa station to Clearwater Beach.

+ One of the major tradeoffs between rail and auto transportation is scheduling. Scheduling trains efficiently is a job-shop problem and is NP-hard. Adding efficient public transit at each end of the Orlando-Tampa line to avoid the need for an automobile adds terms to an already exponential scheduling problem.

The way to mitigate latency in scheduling problems is not cleverness. It's adding substantial surplus capacity to smooth out peaks. It's making the system generally inefficient. Amtrack's poor level of service is a natural result of focusing on efficiency. High speed rail systems designed around efficiency will not beat the mathematics. Nobody is making a high speed rail case around high availability because it's politically infeasible.

It's probably economically infeasible as well. Rail is a circuit switched network. If it is designed to handle 1000 passengers per hour, handling 1001 passengers takes two hours not 1.001 hours.

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