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They Rejected Us

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Re: They Rejected Us

#161
post #103

I still can't get over the fact that Google rejected mxcl, author of homebrew, possibly the most important piece of software on OSX, because he couldn't remember some useless piece of easily-googleable (ha) CS trivia on the spot. Even though they all run it internally. If that isn't the purest, most concentrated form of arbitrary, blind, own-goal beaureaucratic corporate idiocy I don't know what is. And people actual…

Google tells you what to prepare for during an interview. I'm sure that if Max Howell spent a few hours reviewing data structures and algorithms like the rest of us, he would have passed with flying colors. His hostility towards his interview experience only reinforces that he likely wouldn't be a good fit in a large corporation like Google.

Re: They Rejected Us

#162
post #7

Do practice interviews at companies you don't really want to work for. It takes the pressure off and makes the real interviews easier.

Recruiting is a time consuming task for all involved and for you to casually waste peoples time in that manner is horribly disrespectful

Considering the way tech companies interview these days, I'm not really feeling a lot of compassion.

Re: They Rejected Us

#163
This might be good, except there's no difference between "You're good but someone else was a bit better" to "You should get out of this industry and stop wasting your time. You aren't owed a living." which is generally the more correct thing.

I wish people gave better signals for the latter, so you might know better whether you should keep applying, pivot careers, or check out.

Re: They Rejected Us

#164

The best one I've come across yet is Brian Acton being rejected by Facebook [0] ends up creating Whatsapp and in turn selling it to Facebook for $19B. Talk about comebacks. [0] https://twitter.com/brianacton/status/3109544383?lang=en

...and Twitter

https://twitter.com/brianacton/status/1895942068

Re: They Rejected Us

#165
post #34

As someone who's gotten rejected by more companies than I can even count or remember, I think this is great. I have a bitter, guilty fantasy that I could go back to some of those harsh rejections long ago and show them the updates to my resume since they declared me useless. I wonder if/how companies try to measure their false negative rate. Despite how straightforward it is to fire someone in the U.S., they keep say…

>Despite how straightforward it is to fire someone in the U.S., they keep saying "it's better to reject a good candidate than hire a bad one." It depends on the role. Sales tends to be pretty performance-oriented without a lot of leeway if you miss your numbers. But, for better or worse, the attitude for most roles at most companies is that, once they hire someone, they mostly don't want to fire them if they're doing…

> they mostly don't want to fire them if they're doing an even halfway competent job so long as the company as a whole isn't doing layoffs

This doesn't sound anything like the "bad hire" everyone claims to be paranoid about.

Re: They Rejected Us

#166
post #127
post #103

I still can't get over the fact that Google rejected mxcl, author of homebrew, possibly the most important piece of software on OSX, because he couldn't remember some useless piece of easily-googleable (ha) CS trivia on the spot. Even though they all run it internally. If that isn't the purest, most concentrated form of arbitrary, blind, own-goal beaureaucratic corporate idiocy I don't know what is. And people actual…

"possibly the most important piece of software on OSX" I'm earnestly trying to avoid downplaying his work, but it's only a package manager. Unless he was interviewing to be Google's next head of package management on OSX, I'm not sure why you think assessing him on something other than his useful side project is bad form. I'm also not certain how an answer being 'easily-googleable' makes it arbitrary or pointless. So…

> I'm earnestly trying to avoid downplaying his work, but it's only a package manager.

I'm earnestly trying to avoid downplaying your comment, but you sound like you have no clue how much engineering effort and talent is actually required to build and maintain a reliable, functional, production-grade package manager that a huge number of people use.

Being able to completely implement and support a sophisticated software product end-to-end is a FAR better indicator of engineering talent than isolated algorithm puzzles on a whiteboard. Whiteboard problems are used in interviews simply because individually executed complete projects are so rare (at all, let alone publicly visible).

In fact, whiteboard interviews have all but been proven to be among the least useful at distinguishing good vs bad candidates. The only reason it works is because everyone knows it's a game, studies the game, and gets tested at the same game. It's essentially a disguised IQ test that you have to study for.

The problem is, if you don't study for it specifically, you're at a huge disadvantage. This leads to famous engineers (clearly talented) getting rejected because they don't practice jumping through the particular hoops the company makes everyone jump through.

It seems there are more than several cases where Google needs a high profile engineer more than that engineer needs Google, and as a result the engineer doesn't study the hoop-jumping Google wants. Google rejects them out of bureaucratic process, and loses out on a good hire.

On the opposite side: I'm not a famous engineer, so I suck it up and practice whiteboard algorithm problems like most everyone else -- and as a result, I've never had a problem passing coding interviews. But just because most everyone jumps through hoops to play the game, doesn't mean everyone should have to.

Re: They Rejected Us

#167
post #127
post #103

I still can't get over the fact that Google rejected mxcl, author of homebrew, possibly the most important piece of software on OSX, because he couldn't remember some useless piece of easily-googleable (ha) CS trivia on the spot. Even though they all run it internally. If that isn't the purest, most concentrated form of arbitrary, blind, own-goal beaureaucratic corporate idiocy I don't know what is. And people actual…

"possibly the most important piece of software on OSX" I'm earnestly trying to avoid downplaying his work, but it's only a package manager. Unless he was interviewing to be Google's next head of package management on OSX, I'm not sure why you think assessing him on something other than his useful side project is bad form. I'm also not certain how an answer being 'easily-googleable' makes it arbitrary or pointless. So…

> I'm earnestly trying to avoid downplaying his work, but it's only a package manager.

I don't really know what to tell you, except I feel like you may be new to software engineering or have forgotten much of what goes into it. The vast majority of engineers at Google will never lead a software project with the utility and breadth of use as the most popular package manager for mac OS for almost a decade. Most engineers at Google will contribute to a small portion of software that will be run by a large fraction of the planet's computers, but owning the architecture, project management, testing, community support, and coding? No.

A package manager that works as well as brew (though it's not without its faults!) is non-trivial to say the least. We suffered through fink, and things got better with macports. But brew clearly works better.

It's reasonable for a company to reject a new graduate applicant based on their freezing during an interview, for an algorithm that is part of freshman year courses in Computer Science. It's also reasonable for us to comment on the absurdity of a company making the same determination for a senior software engineer at a top software company, the vast majority of whom do not touch binary trees for an entire career!

If a Google engineer were to reimplement a binary tree or quicksort in a backend service, that code would fail code review with the comment: "use the library."

> Someone had to write that answer on Stack Overflow, and the chances are you'd rather hire that guy.

The popularity of his tweet indicates that no, chances are that engineers interviewing Max Howell would absolutely choose him over a binary-tree-implementer. Evidence indicates your viewpoint is in the minority.

Re: They Rejected Us

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite their recent unpopularity, Facebook still has a high hiring bar and a talented software engineering workforce that will provide valuable career experience.

You have to wonder at what point an organization becomes so unpopular that it impacts someone's hiring prospects, even if they did a good job there. "June 2015 - May 2017: Migrated database to new platform, and re-engineered web presence for diversified global social network, resulting in 450% increase in engagement, and 23% ROI. Site: racistbastards.com "

I had a friend who worked at Theranos who has trouble finding work because he was there for 3 years.

Re: They Rejected Us

#169

Seems like a lot of people went on to be hired by twitter after not satisfying some other hiring processes. What if this just means that twitter hires second rate people? Also, I wouldn’t have hired the guy who doesn’t use semicolons in his JavaScript, either.

I used to hate when I saw JS with semicolons too. "Get off my lawn" with that naked code! Not sure when or how it changed, but I'm on the other side of the fence now. Without semicolons (unless multi-statements on a single line), JS is so much cleaner. A line break is perfectly sufficient to signal the end of a statement.

That is a perfectly reasonable opinion. However, as a grammar-nazi, I feel that proper punctuation is important. While certain poetic forms may take liberties with punctuation for the sake of the artistic expression, sentences end with a full stop--separated by a subsequent sentence in the same paragraph by two spaces--and lines of code end in an unambiguous visible token.

Newline/return characters are whitespace tokens. Differentiating them from other whitespace tokens is the first step on the path to madness. What's next? Treating tabs differently from spaces?

~ (ha ha only serious)

Re: They Rejected Us

#170
post #161
post #103

I still can't get over the fact that Google rejected mxcl, author of homebrew, possibly the most important piece of software on OSX, because he couldn't remember some useless piece of easily-googleable (ha) CS trivia on the spot. Even though they all run it internally. If that isn't the purest, most concentrated form of arbitrary, blind, own-goal beaureaucratic corporate idiocy I don't know what is. And people actual…

Google tells you what to prepare for during an interview. I'm sure that if Max Howell spent a few hours reviewing data structures and algorithms like the rest of us, he would have passed with flying colors. His hostility towards his interview experience only reinforces that he likely wouldn't be a good fit in a large corporation like Google.

And that's exactly why I would never apply for Google. Despite me having years of leading product teams and enterprise applications, the fact that I need to "study" for an interview is asinine.
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