Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#161

Post by SilasX » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:52 PM UTC

hk__2 wrote: post #54

ersiees wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It changes the value fluctuations. Right now the biggest problem with using crypto as your day to day money is that you cannot trust the money that you put into crypto to stay at the same value over time + transactions are slow.

> Right now the biggest problem with using crypto as your day to day money is that you cannot trust the money that you put into crypto to stay at the same value over time Isn’t that a problem you have with any currency?

Existing, non-crypto currencies don’t have that problem, mainly because of inertia: so many people are using it that exchange rates don’t affect ordinary prices denominated in the currency.

When a cryptocurrency has such adoption, the volatility problem will go away too.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#162

Post by edoceo » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:52 PM UTC

yellow_postit wrote: post #150

dingaling wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Utopia my ass It actually IS a Utopia, by Thomas More's original definition; a society that appears idyllic and perfectly organised on the surface, but is only maintained in that state by everyone doing what they're supposed to do. And that is achieved by enforcing total compliance through surveillance and coercion. The point of the book is that the reader really wouldn't want to live in Utopia once he understands…

I fail to see how Sweden in this case is enforcing the cashless trends through surveillance or coercion.

Maybe the near monopoly of the payment network is the coercion?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#163

Post by dysan819 » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:53 PM UTC

yellow_postit wrote: post #150

dingaling wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Utopia my ass It actually IS a Utopia, by Thomas More's original definition; a society that appears idyllic and perfectly organised on the surface, but is only maintained in that state by everyone doing what they're supposed to do. And that is achieved by enforcing total compliance through surveillance and coercion. The point of the book is that the reader really wouldn't want to live in Utopia once he understands…

I fail to see how Sweden in this case is enforcing the cashless trends through surveillance or coercion.

You have a severe lack of imagination. You must be fun at parties.

There are a myriad of ways Sweden can and probably is enforcing cashless trends through surveillance and coercion. Encouraging banks and retailers to refuse cash services, as referenced in the article, is likely done by the government. This enhances their ability to track and control all monetary transactions for any number of reasons (nefarious or otherwise).

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#164

Post by samontar » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:53 PM UTC

_cs2017_ wrote: post #70

Do dope dealers and brothels accept Apple Pay, or do people somehow get US dollar cash for those expenses?

I imagine you Venmo or equivalent like you do in America.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#165

Post by protomyth » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

bouncycastle wrote: post #151

CPLX wrote: post #14

A society without cash is a society in which every person has no choice but to get the permission of someone they don’t know and will never meet each and every time they seek to obtain food, water, shelter, or transportation, and that permission can be revoked instantly, silently, and invisibly at any time.

Want to share about my experience about the "permission" part. I once travelled to Beijing and had dinner in a fancy dumpling restaurant. When I went to pay the bill, my European bank instantly flagged the transaction and blocked my card from further use. I had no idea what happened until I called the bank later that evening (had to wait until they opened). So yeah, what you said happened to me - revoked instantly, s…

I was at a gas station in Grand Forks, ND in the middle of winter at 2AM fueling up. I had traveled this route and stopped at this gas station at about the same time of night multiple times when I was going from ND to MN and back. The card (Citibank Visa) had a large open credit line, but it somehow got rejected because (and I quote) "they installed new software"[1]. This was a bit before I had a cellphone and luckily I had taken my Dad's advice and always kept cash hidden in the car. They promised it wouldn't happen again, and I remembered to make sure I had an emergency stash of cash in the car. I have no clue what I would have done if I had to only use that card.

1) I do get a little sick of companies feeling that "software" is a complete explanation for why something has gone wrong.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#166

Post by vinniejames » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

Why couldn't you send your friends crypto currency?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#167

Post by _8j50 » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

This is a major societal change. I for one believe there needs to be a tangible method of payment where a 3rd party is not requried for transactions.

I don't care if it's cash or some digital payment coin/card. The point is,people nees to be able to transact without a 3rd party and be able to buy physical tokens(as opposed to wire transfers and digital tokens).

People are too careless when changing fundamental aspects of their society. Payments can be made convenient,peer to peer and have a small amount of participation barriers.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#168

Post by dasil003 » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

sparkie wrote: post #69

asah wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious q: one of the big arguments against untraceable transactions is organized crime. Yes they're very real. But what if untraceable transactions were limited to small amounts and slow rates, such that you could personally provide for your family but not run an enterprise? (basically that's what physical cash attempts, and as long as the denominations are kept low, it sort of works)

You can ask the questions about whether it should or should not enable crime, but the question is useless, because it doesn't address whether it can or cannot enable crime. When you ask this question, you come to the conclusion that it can enable crime. So then you might argue that if it can enable crime, we must do something about it. Admirable ideas, but you then need to ask the question, can we do anything about i…

You're fooling yourself if you believe nothing can be done about Bitcoin. If the powers that be want it dead they'll outlaw it, and that's effectively game over for any kind of common transaction system. The reason it hasn't so far is because there are too many rich and powerful speculators involved, but those winds could change in a hurry so I wouldn't get too cocky.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#169

Post by bouncycastle » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:57 PM UTC

samontar wrote: post #160

bouncycastle wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Want to share about my experience about the "permission" part. I once travelled to Beijing and had dinner in a fancy dumpling restaurant. When I went to pay the bill, my European bank instantly flagged the transaction and blocked my card from further use. I had no idea what happened until I called the bank later that evening (had to wait until they opened). So yeah, what you said happened to me - revoked instantly, s…

That’s anti-fraud to stop someone from stealing your card and using it elsewhere. You can usually pre-empt that by informing the bank of travel.

Anti-fraud may been the reason on that day, but who knows what will be the reason tomorrow (eg Capital Controls as it happened in Greece). The main point is that I still had to get permission. It's kind of like when I was a kid, I wasn't allowed to go outside the house unless I informed my parents, which was like getting permission implicitly.

When using cash, you do not have to inform the bank anything.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#170

Post by eric_h » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:57 PM UTC

I like physical cash. I don’t always use it, and generally use my points earning credit card at places I frequent, but don’t at places I’m new to or have no intention of returning to (unless I don’t have enough cash on me). The number of times my card has been stolen has entered into the 10s, even in our new chip card era (I’ve had three chip cards compromised, but can only definitively attribute one of those to it having been stolen after typing it into a website. i.e. no chip involved). Apple Pay and its ilk are a step in the right direction (and convenient because they still work when the physical card is cancelled), but still traceable and beholden to additional parties.

If I’m somewhere where I think the transaction might be sketchy, I can pay cash and not think about it any further. Skimming, however, is still a thing and every time my card is stolen it causes me an inconvenience that would not exist if I’d used cash.

“Bitcoin/cryptocurrency will fix this!” some of you will say. Perhaps, but it’s got a long way to go. All the USD I have in my pocket still says “this note is legal for all debts, public and private”, I don’t personally think a sign saying “we are cashless” at the cash register after I’ve ordered my food is acceptable (those establishments I’ve encountered didn’t accept bitcoin, either).

I acknowledge what it says on usd currency is somewhat tangential to a Swedish cashless society, but I still think cash should be king, or at least always accepted.