Gates Foundation spent $200M funding toilet research • Hacker News Board

Re: Gates Foundation spent $200M funding toilet research

#161

Post by senorjazz » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 1:01 PM UTC

wongarsu wrote: post #121

gtsteve wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a civil engineer but I do work with them occasionally. There are numerous challenges with this, probably the hardest is water pressure: if the water pressure cannot be guaranteed then poor plumbing can send waste water back into the water main, which is a really big problem. I also assume that to ensure water pressure involves electricity - a lot of poorer countries do not have a constant or reliable electric…

>I also assume that to ensure water pressure involves electricity - a lot of poorer countries do not have a constant or reliable electricity supply. Today water pressure in the western world is mostly generated by running finely controlled electric pumps constantly, but it wasn't too long ago that water towers were used everywhere to maintain water pressure. The advantage of a water tower is that you can run an inacc…

That's completely forgetting a lot of these areas are water stressed now let alone what they are projected to be in the near future

Re: Gates Foundation spent $200M funding toilet research

#162

Post by Amygaz » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 1:05 PM UTC

asteli wrote: post #134

jjeaff wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most properly sized and installed septic tanks do not ever need to be pumped out. They compost on their own and the excess water seeps out underground.

this was contrary to my city-dweller's understanding, so i did some quick wiki-reading and it seems like the reality is somewhere between you and GP's statement? i.e. they do biodegrade waste via anaerobic bacteria, but non-degradable sludge has to get pumped out every few years.

Your city dweller’s habits compel you to throw fat and oil down the drain. These need very high temperature to compost. But then you are also throwing chlorine and ammonia based cleaning agents, which greatly inhibits organic life.

If you let the fat and oil solidify at room temp and dispose of them in the trash, and if you use regular soap in the recommended amount, and if you septic tank additive once in a while, you will be tearing the problem at the source, and will only need to take care of the tank when it’s time to replace it in 40 years.

Re: Gates Foundation spent $200M funding toilet research

#163

Post by camhenlin » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 1:06 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #137

asteli wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this was contrary to my city-dweller's understanding, so i did some quick wiki-reading and it seems like the reality is somewhere between you and GP's statement? i.e. they do biodegrade waste via anaerobic bacteria, but non-degradable sludge has to get pumped out every few years.

>every few years Every few decades for a properly sized and properly functioning system.

Septic tank owner here. I own a single family home, maybe larger setups are different. The recommendation from the installer is that it is pumped and inspected every 3-4 years.

Re: Gates Foundation spent $200M funding toilet research

#164

Post by gigatexal » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 1:06 PM UTC

I’d like to meet Gates one day and shake his hand and just tell him I’m glad he’s doing so much good with his wealth. I take for granted a lot and he’s helping to lift those that would love to have what I have.

Re: Gates Foundation spent $200M funding toilet research

#165

Post by dogma1138 » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

asteli wrote: post #134

jjeaff wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most properly sized and installed septic tanks do not ever need to be pumped out. They compost on their own and the excess water seeps out underground.

this was contrary to my city-dweller's understanding, so i did some quick wiki-reading and it seems like the reality is somewhere between you and GP's statement? i.e. they do biodegrade waste via anaerobic bacteria, but non-degradable sludge has to get pumped out every few years.

It depends on how the tank is setup and the drainage system it has.

Septic tanks are not closed systems they are open and intended to provide an environment that can produce a bio-reactor while maintaining drainage through the soil.

Many good systems don’t need to be drained other than every few decades in fact good systems would outlast the tank and the filtering substrate it’s built on so when the time comes you need to dig out the tank and the gravel and other filtering particulate it used because that is what has degraded.

The problem with septic tanks is that they don’t scale we’ll have one on a large property in the middle no where that 5 people use and it’s a great solution have a bunch of them and worse over use one in particular and you get a polluting mess.

But septic tanks also don’t solve the other problem with western toilets and that is the amount of water they consume which is simply unfeasible for many developing regions.

TLDR; if the septic tank was installed and sized correctly it will outlast you even without pumping it, but it’s not a solution the reason we don’t use them in cities is because they don’t and can’t scale with urban population densities.

Re: Gates Foundation spent $200M funding toilet research

#166

Post by alehul » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #109

I admire Gates a lot, but for him and way too many technophiles the answer is somehow always tech. Africa does not have a toilet problem. Or a tech problem. Or even a resources problem. They have a lack of intelligent social organization problem; i.e. dysfunctional or non-existent institutions, laws and organizational structures, as well as myriad forms of corruption from top to bottom that make it impossible to crea…

While I agree with you, and have actually thought about this same problem a ton, this seems dangerous to try and change as an individual rather than a fellow government.

Additionally, removing corrupt officials will just create a power vacuum, and oftentimes officials will become corrupt over the course of their term. I forget the political science terminology, but there's this issue where someone will only be able to take over in a dictatorship if they have the backing of many others, who, unsurprisingly, want more out of them than they get from the current official. So the end result is that nearly always, the new official will be more corrupt, particularly in destitute autocracies and oligarchies where the general public's opinions are either irrelevant or uninformed.

So while, yes, the corruption will throw wrenches into all our efforts, is there a solution to it? Or do we just have to throw enough resources to account for the corruption, and hope that an educated society with better infrastructure can start fighting the corruption problem themselves?

Re: Gates Foundation spent $200M funding toilet research

#167

Post by Amygaz » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

aerophilic wrote: post #53

nradov wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western toilets seem to work reasonably well with septic tanks in rural areas. Those don't involve sewer lines or treatment plants.

The issue comes down to cost. As he mentions in the article, the goal is to get to 5 cents a day. Just a basic calculation, a “standard” septic system costs between $1500-4000 to install, and lasts roughly 25 years. Just doing the math on the low end costs brings you to about $0.16 cents a day, 3X the goal Bill Gates is advocating. Note: this isn’t even taking into account the cost of the toilet itself or any plumbin…

Septic system lasts for 40 years. But installing a new septic is expensive. $4000 is in the low end

Re: Gates Foundation spent $200M funding toilet research

#168

Post by gtsteve » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #113

gtsteve wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a civil engineer but I do work with them occasionally. There are numerous challenges with this, probably the hardest is water pressure: if the water pressure cannot be guaranteed then poor plumbing can send waste water back into the water main, which is a really big problem. I also assume that to ensure water pressure involves electricity - a lot of poorer countries do not have a constant or reliable electric…

>Building this sort of infrastructure is a massive engineering task >It requires skilled engineers and labour Exactly, and there are no tricks around that are known to solve that, other than to engage in massive infrastructure projects. A very simple thing.

There are tricks around known to solve this, such as building intermediate solutions like what Gates proposes to do.

When you have a serious issue in production that can be fixed with a global variable in 5 minutes or spending a day correctly planning and implementing a fix that routes the data correctly, what do you pick? I'd hope doing the first thing and replacing it with the second.

It's that sort of decision, only people die if you don't move in time.

Re: Gates Foundation spent $200M funding toilet research

#169

Post by vladjjj » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #108

odonnellryan wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you think the poop goes when it gets pumped out? In the sailing community more and more people are using composting toilets: https://farmingmybackyard.com/diy-composting-toilet/ As long as it is disposed of safely (properly composted), the cost here is the composting material.

Most properly sized and installed septic tanks do not ever need to be pumped out. They compost on their own and the excess water seeps out underground.

Actually, a proper septic tank (according to EU regulations) has to be water-tight and be emptied regularly. Many beaches on the Mediterranean loose their health pass occasionally due to nearby overbuilding and improper septic tanks.

Re: Gates Foundation spent $200M funding toilet research

#170

Post by timlin » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #108

odonnellryan wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you think the poop goes when it gets pumped out? In the sailing community more and more people are using composting toilets: https://farmingmybackyard.com/diy-composting-toilet/ As long as it is disposed of safely (properly composted), the cost here is the composting material.

Most properly sized and installed septic tanks do not ever need to be pumped out. They compost on their own and the excess water seeps out underground.

However, if the system isn't maintained it often needs replaced at a large expense. Most homeowners don't know how to inspect and don't bother to hire someone knowledgeable.

Our local township has an ordinance where every residential sewage system (10k residents, not sure how many systems that is) has to be pumped out and inspected by a certified sewage hauler. This way, the homeowner knows about and is required to make simple repairs before the entire system fails.