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MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

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Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#161
post #115

I can understand the sentiment and realize the need to monetize, it's hard when others take your code and make more money out of it then you (which I am assuming is the case). But even if they are right, this doesn't seem smart, it feels like a knee jerk reaction. I imagine that they hope that by doing this they'll cause people who are using mongo on other providers to move to mongolabs, since there is 0 chance of th…

> it's hard when others take your code and make more money out of it then you Just my opinion, of course, but I think this is only true for sales and management types who are profit driven. For engineers and artists, it's not really an issue. We want to see our best work appreciated, primarily.

> For engineers and artists, it's not really an issue. We want to see our best work appreciated, primarily.

I want to be paid first. Everything else comes second. That doesn't not make me an engineer. It makes me a wise engineer. Money buys options and freedom. Prestige and other abstract concepts are used to steal your time and value.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#162
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear "weary" spoken so very rarely that I have no idea how it's pronounced here (Indiana). I can't even make up my mind how I pronounce it, but I'd wager it's almost, but not quite, indistinguishable from wary.

One is w-ee-ry the other w-ah-ry.

Yes...ish. That's the correct pronunciation, but neither are used frequently enough for me to be confident that's the actual pronunciation, and I'd wager it's different in different places.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#163

As a non-lawyer who's tried to understand copyright law, this analysis confuses me; my understanding was that in the realm of source code "by default" you only have rights to use that source code through a license or contract, so it seems odd that any restriction on the terms would be misuse or detrimental to competition, when the option always exists to not use MongoDB. This isn't me trying to argue against the arti…

>my understanding was that in the realm of source code "by default" you only have rights to use that source code through a license or contract

No, not at all, and this is a key difference between OSS licenses and EULAs. By default "you" (the entity in question, which may be an individual human or legal organization) have the right to use lawfully acquired source code for absolutely anything you wish. What copyright governs is distribution (either of the copyright works or any derivatives, except for exemptions made by Fair Use in places that have such a legal concept). So if I just put source code up for my program and make it freely available and nothing else, then by default you may download that and run it or hack it up or whatever else you want, just as if I gave you a book I wrote you'd be free to mark up the pages or tear some out and reorder it or whatever. You don't need the copyright holder's permission for any use of it.

What you do need permission for is to then share any of that on. So standard open source created a fair and thus very strong quid pro quo essentially: someone is offered additional rights beyond what they'd have by default via a license that requests they do some task in consideration related specifically to that copyrighted work (for some licenses it might only be indemnification from liability and maybe giving credit somewhere, for copyleft it means applying the license to any derivative works as well). There is no click through or "by using this you agree to..." there, your acquisition of the source is entirely separate from a later choice to distribute the source. No license is needed for use, but if you don't agree with the license and don't get another one then you have no right under copyright to distribute [1].

Anyway that's a simplified basis for the theory behind OSS. It's founded in the simple and straightforward application of copyright law and contracts, and it's fundamentally quite fair to all parties and has a very limited and directly related to the work aim. As the article says the further away one tries to get to that the more complex and iffy things can become and the easier it may be to include something that is legally challengeable. Copyright is open source's hammer, but not every aspect of technology is a nail.

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1: Note that in practice this can at least theoretically get sticky if you're a programmer in a related field (as so many on HN are) rather then a random user, because having read the source code if you then down the road wrote something that looked the same it could be claimed it was derived which is then a huge pain to fight about. For non-high profile areas it's unlikely it'd ever come up, but the future is hard to predict in that area of life so many ethical or just cautious programmers would be careful about looking at source that wasn't open source.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#164
post #3

Use Postgres, problem solved.

This, by the way, is also a good answer to many questions along the lines of, "which NoSQL database should I use".

99% of the time, you're losing a lot from NoSQL, and you're not gaining anything. Most people who talk about NoSQL perf would never actually hit the perf limits of Postgres on their real life workloads.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a question about how derivative works are defined with respect to AGPL. With the GPL, you couldn't distribute software that links (at runtime) to GPL software, without open-sourcing your software as well. This is because, linking another piece of software to a GPL'd binary means you're creating a "derived work". That's why they made the LGPL (the "lesser" public license) which allows being linked to from close…

Runtime linking doesn't always equals derivative work. Some GPL enthusiasts would like it to be that way but it doesn't mean it is. As far as I know it's a murky legal issue. I forget the exact case but one counter-example was: you have proprietary library A. Someone makes a GPL implementation B with a compatible interface. You ship software C with instructions that users can use either library A or B. An example of…

> I forget the exact case but one counter-example was: you have proprietary library A. Someone makes a GPL implementation B with a compatible interface. You ship software C with instructions that users can use either library A or B.

Are you referring to the discussion between the author of CLisp and Stallman about GNU Readline, by chance?

https://github.com/JoshCheek/clisp/blob/master/doc/Why-CLISP...

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MongoDB made some very sketchy, undocumented (or poorly documented) technical decisions in its early years that placed data at great risk. It's better now, but very few things worry technical people more than a database that loses data. It's hard to get past that early impression.

Then again, so did MySQL. Do you remember the MySQL 3.x "MyISAM" days? No transactions, automatic truncation and type conversions, etc...

MySQL was very upfront about it, though. They always said that if you wanted that stuff, there are real RDBMS for that.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#167
post #8

I don't understand the line of reasoning. Can anyone give me a lay explanation? My understanding of the license change is basically "if you use MongoDB to support any site, all software higher in the stack needs to be released as well". Is that accurate? If so, why can't an author make this part of the license?

No. If you take MongoDB and offer it as SaaS, the additional software that's part of your offering, such as monitoring, backup solutions, etc, have to be open-sourced, or you have to make their code available (since the chair of OSI defines what's open source).

Thanks for the explanation! That makes sense.

So... why does the blog post argue that it's unenforceable?

My understanding is that they are saying "you can't use copyright to enforce something that isn't part of a creative work".

If that's an accurate version of their argument, then why not? The agreement is a contract with copyright as one side of the equation, and some behavior on the other side. Why wouldn't you be able offer a license for a creative work contingent upon things unrelated to a derivative work?

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#168
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear "weary" spoken so very rarely that I have no idea how it's pronounced here (Indiana). I can't even make up my mind how I pronounce it, but I'd wager it's almost, but not quite, indistinguishable from wary.

One is w-ee-ry the other w-ah-ry.

> w-ah-ry

I've always heard it pronounced way-ree.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#169
post #113

MongoDB of course has right to change their license to anything they want. One day they might decide to go proprietary with no notice too... According to our poll many users will seek alternatives for MongoDB because of the license change https://www.percona.com/blog/2018/10/24/poll-mongodb-license... MongoDB probably feels they have reached critical mass so it does not matter any more...

>MongoDB probably feels they have reached critical mass so it does not matter any more... They have become a new standard and they are aware of it. Just look at any bootcamps for devs this days , it’s basically always JS + MongoDB. Not Postgres or MySQL , Mongo. Mongo has become the new MySQL for a lot of devs these days. It’s often the only DBMS they know... These move is somewhat coherent with what others are doing…

> Just look at any bootcamps for devs this days , it’s basically always JS + MongoDB. Not Postgres or MySQL , Mongo.

The online classes love Firebase. :-D

But yeah, I had to explain to a bootcamp dev a few weeks ago what Postgres was. I felt rather sad.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#170
post #44

I honestly don't see how this can pass OSI or DFSG approval. It's a blatant violation of rule 9, which prohibits restrictions on distribution of other software.

There is no restriction, only the requirement that the systems that make your service run be made available under the SSPL.
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