What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up? • Hacker News Board

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#161

Post by codinghorror » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 9:27 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #147

jrochkind1 wrote: post #26

One challenge not discussed here is when an accepted and highly voted answer _used_ to be a good answer, but no longer is in later versions of whatever software/platform/library is discussed. This is also something that gets worse over time, like the uniqueness problem. I think it's worse than the uniqueness problem, multiple duplicate _good_ questions/answers don't actually harm, misguide, or delay anyone looking fo…

And this can happen surprisingly quickly. As a cautionary example, see https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5021456/how-does-mongodb... . The question was why MongoDB was by default able to avoid the equivalent of SQL injection attacks. My answer took what was in their FAQ at the time, and expanded upon it based on advice from D.J. Bernstein - who is famous for his ability to write secure by default code. Then it was…

why haven't you, or someone else, edited the answer to indicate this or add a disclaimer?

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#162

Post by codinghorror » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 9:28 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #155

jrochkind1 wrote: post #26

One challenge not discussed here is when an accepted and highly voted answer _used_ to be a good answer, but no longer is in later versions of whatever software/platform/library is discussed. This is also something that gets worse over time, like the uniqueness problem. I think it's worse than the uniqueness problem, multiple duplicate _good_ questions/answers don't actually harm, misguide, or delay anyone looking fo…

This is a major issue. Just last week I had a student make an untrue claim about how something works based on a top ranking Stackoverflow answer. It turns out that the answer is from 2008, and was true back then, but has not been for something like 5 years already. Stackoverflow badly needs a system for people (moderators?) to be able to 'obsolete' answers, possibly mark them with a highly visible "valid only up to v…

Try pressing the "improve this answer" aka edit button and editing it, for starters. Works even for anonymous accounts!

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#163

Post by codinghorror » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #26

One challenge not discussed here is when an accepted and highly voted answer _used_ to be a good answer, but no longer is in later versions of whatever software/platform/library is discussed. This is also something that gets worse over time, like the uniqueness problem. I think it's worse than the uniqueness problem, multiple duplicate _good_ questions/answers don't actually harm, misguide, or delay anyone looking fo…

> One challenge not discussed here is when an accepted and highly voted answer _used_ to be a good answer, but no longer is in later versions of whatever software/platform/library is discussed. This is also something that gets worse over time, like the uniqueness problem.

It's not discussed because the solution is kinda obvious.. wikis mean editing, right? Even by anonymous users? That's also how it works on Stack Overflow. Edit the answer to make it better, more up to date, or add a disclaimer at the top that it only applies to very specific versions as needed.

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#164

Post by mark-r » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 9:35 PM UTC

mapgrep wrote: post #122

jrochkind1 wrote: post #26

One challenge not discussed here is when an accepted and highly voted answer _used_ to be a good answer, but no longer is in later versions of whatever software/platform/library is discussed. This is also something that gets worse over time, like the uniqueness problem. I think it's worse than the uniqueness problem, multiple duplicate _good_ questions/answers don't actually harm, misguide, or delay anyone looking fo…

When he writes about ohw StackOverflow is first and foremost a wiki, he is offering a solution to this situation. In the original vision of StackOverflow, that accepted and highly voted answer would be converted into a wiki. Then when it gets stale, it would be revised. Not saying they do a good/bad job of this, just that, that's how it was supposed to work. And ya it would be totally frustrating as a new contrib bec…

The idea of StackOverflow as a wiki is completely at odds with its built-in gamification. Answers are written by individuals who garner points for them, and their name and avatar are prominently displayed.

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#165

Post by codinghorror » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 9:35 PM UTC

kauffj wrote: post #57

StackOverflow being a wiki is at substantial odds with the way answers are selected. If StackOverflow is a wiki, then the best answer to a question should be determined by the community, not the asker, and needs to be able to evolve and change over time. However, StackOverflow simultaneously insists questions can't be duplicated while making answer selection immutable and controlled by the asker. This results in a su…

That's mostly a perk for the question asker. Nobody (that I know of) stops reading at the first answer, because there are usually multiple good ways to solve any problem in programming. And if the accepted answer has a fraction of the upvotes of the answer just under it.. that's another strong signal to "keep scrolling"

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#166

Post by mark-r » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 9:36 PM UTC

ant6n wrote: post #129

jrochkind1 wrote: post #26

One challenge not discussed here is when an accepted and highly voted answer _used_ to be a good answer, but no longer is in later versions of whatever software/platform/library is discussed. This is also something that gets worse over time, like the uniqueness problem. I think it's worse than the uniqueness problem, multiple duplicate _good_ questions/answers don't actually harm, misguide, or delay anyone looking fo…

A related issue: the best answer may have a link to the documentation, which may rot. Now people will down-vote the answer because broken link. This could happen if somebody asks how to do something using some library. If the library actually has a builtin facility to solve the problem, but then the answer gets down-voted due to documentation link rot; then another answer explaining how to built that facility from sc…

The best answers paraphrase what's said at the link, so they don't become worthless when the link goes stale.

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#167

Post by codinghorror » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 9:41 PM UTC

PudgePacket wrote: post #4

I've used stackoverflow for years and have never heard it put like that. "Stack Overflow ultimately has much more in common with Wikipedia than a discussion forum. By this I mean questions and answers on Stack Overflow are not primarily judged by their usefulness to a specific individual, but by how many other programmers that question or answer can potentially help over time ." Personally I would have been much more…

> Personally I would have been much more understanding of the process of using stackoverflow if I knew this, and so would many of the people who get stung expecting an answer to their question.

My gut feeling is that this worked better in the past because Stack Overflow was at a smaller scale, and the audience was a bit more insular and willing to read stuff about how the systems work on Stack Overflow (programmers love understanding rule systems; it's literally their job most of the time). Now that SO has achieved permanent world scale, the constant influx of new people who don't take the time to learn the ambient norms before posting, and thus cut themselves on what they perceive to be unnecessary sharp edges, is getting .. large.

Most of this could be solved by a very detailed, educational multi-step /ask page in my opinion.

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#168

Post by codinghorror » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 9:43 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #75

Wow, time flies (for both the age of SO and how long since Jeff was involved). So I'm onboard with the concept of SO as Wikipedia. Fine. Weirdly I see no mention of some of the bigger problems (as I see them). And what's weird about these problems is they were completely foreseeable by anyone who paid the tiniest bit of attention to Wikipedia. 1. TMS (Toxic Moderator Syndrome). You have askers, answerers and moderato…

> How to handle stale information. I still see no solution to this.

Since you're down with "SO as Wikipedia" surely you can find the edit button on every answer and question.. which works even in incognito mode when you are not logged in?

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#169

Post by codinghorror » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 9:47 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #5

When I wrote my bachelor thesis about democratic methods in online communities, I found out that all these crowd-sourced sites had one major problem. When they start, senior players in their field of work laugh at them because they don't have much content. So they try to get as much as possible, trying to get as many new creators on board as they can. Later, when they have grown enough, the senior players in the fiel…

> They unleash a task force of moderators on them that kick out the low-quality creators

Not following, SO has always had pretty strict rules on quality from 2009 forward. There's no inflection point here.

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#170

Post by codinghorror » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 9:53 PM UTC

Flimm wrote: post #45

I like this blog post, this is the vision of Stack Overflow that I bought into when I started posting. However, it's hard not to read this blog post as a diplomatic pushback to the current efforts of SO leaders to make it more welcoming. Jeff Atwood says that SO is "supposed to involve a healthy kind of minor [...] anxiety". This section in particular stands out to me: > This is why I cringe so hard I practically tur…

> not to read this blog post as a diplomatic pushback to the current efforts of SO leaders to make it more welcoming

Not at all, at least, that is not my intent. I do feel like the key items articulated there (SO as wiki, duplicate danger, competitive system of peer review, for practicing programmers) are not well understood by outsiders and peripheral members of the community, though.

Note that the Stack Overflow tour (which was and is quite good!) that explains what Stack Overflow is was perma-demoted to the footer... well, that used to be true, but actually I just checked now and it's gone altogether? The word "tour" doesn't appear on the SO homepage in incognito mode, at all. You can visit "help" (which is in the footer) and then, and only then, will it appear as a topbar.

https://stackoverflow.com/tour