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How the Finnish survive without small talk

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Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#161

Post by hrktb »

SilasX wrote: post #146
hrktb wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference would be that it’s one sided, there is no expectation of response. It’s so funny when sometimes the clerk has been doing it that job so long that it’s not proper words anymore and you’re not even expected to parse it correctly, it just doesn’t matter.

Which is a sad state of affairs. I like it when words have meaning.

yes. Ironically replacing these repetitive roles with machines can give human staff a better chance to move to a supporting role and actually help.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#162

Post by thaumasiotes »

mmsimanga wrote: post #157
illuminati1911 wrote: post #7

(I’m a Finn) I didn’t know what small talk was until I went to study abroad. Most of my foreign classmates often asked me things like ”how are you doing?” etc. and when I literally answered them what I had been up to recently they were very confused. ”Dude...no need to tell your life story, just say ’good’ and that’s it” I replied ”Why do you ask a question if you don’t care about the answer?” I learned the hard way,…

In Africa we are the total opposite. We are the masters of small talk. Traditionally when you meet someone you need to ask how the person is, how his/her family are and whether or not the rains have been good (rains are an indicator for the size of the harvest nevermind that we buy most of our food now). Some people go through all the family member, how is your dad, how is your mother, how is your daughter is she enj…

> traditionally when you meet someone you need to ask how the person is, how his/her family are and whether or not the rains have been good (rains are an indicator for the size of the harvest nevermind that we buy most of our food now). Some people go through all the family member, how is your dad, how is your mother, how is your daughter is she enjoying school, where is your brother now, how are his kids, has the last born started grade school ... After all these greetings only then can you get to your business. I swear this is the reason Africa as a whole got left behind in terms of technological development.

I would be interested to know what standard Japanese practice is. In my mind (informed only by stereotype) they'd lean toward the ask-about-the-family end of the spectrum too.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#164

Post by kpil »

dingaling wrote: post #65
illuminati1911 wrote: post #7

(I’m a Finn) I didn’t know what small talk was until I went to study abroad. Most of my foreign classmates often asked me things like ”how are you doing?” etc. and when I literally answered them what I had been up to recently they were very confused. ”Dude...no need to tell your life story, just say ’good’ and that’s it” I replied ”Why do you ask a question if you don’t care about the answer?” I learned the hard way,…

How do Finns flirt without smalltalk? Just jump straight to 'do you find me attractive?' and 'do you want to date?' Though admittedly I used to work with an Irish guy whose sole chat-up line was 'are ye ridin?' and who had considerable success.

Judging by a few nights in Helsinki a long time ago, the main strategy for men seemed to be drinking themselves into such a helpless state that it triggered some sort of maternal instinct in a girl walking by.

It seemed to work for them. Actually talking to a girl also worked if I remember correctly.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#165

Post by klodolph »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #147
klodolph wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things are universal but a shopkeeper making smalltalk is not creepy in the US, even if it is in other countries. It's a cultural thing. One of the benefits of smalltalk in shops is that if you have a question you don't have to interrupt anybody. You're already having a conversation with a clerk so you might as well ask a question about the merchandise. I don't have to get anybody's attention. I'm not advocating…

> The idea that smalltalk is "feigned" doesn't make sense to me Ever talk to an American waiter about this? Often they will complain about their customers and how much they hate them, but they still have to be smiley and make small talk because 1) they feel they won’t get tips without it, and 2) their bosses insist on it.

I've been living in the US for almost all of my life, various regions, and I still don't see how small talk is "feigned". (I am curious what your social background is, and what your experience is with US culture.) The construction does not even make sense to me, and the phrase seems logically impossible to me, so my guess is that we are using different definitions for "feigned" or "small talk" or some other term.

"To feign" means to do something in a way that it looks like you're doing something else, so I could feign that I care about you and care about your well-being, but secretly I don't care about you and I hate you. However, small talk is not this. Small talk is just polite conversation that does not cover any issues of real relevance but merely demonstrates friendly intentions or a desire for positive interactions. So when I say, "How are you?", if this is small talk, I am not actually feigning interest. We both understand that I am not actually expressing any interest in your well being, I am only trying to communicate that I want to have a positive interaction with you. In Linguistics this phenomenon is called "pragmatics", and it is the phenomenon that the actual meaning of an utterance can be completely different from its literal meaning. Another example of pragmatics is "Do you have a pen?" This is literally a question of fact, but most likely it is a request to borrow a pen. Someone saying "Do you have a pen?" is not feigning interest in whether you have a pen any more than someone saying "How are you doing today?" is feigning interest in your well being. If you ask me, "Do you have a pen?" and I reply, "Yes," with no further comment or action I'm being rude, just as I would be rude if a sales clerk asked me, "How are you doing today?" and I started rambling about my upcoming divorce and how my mother was recently diagnosed with cancer.

That's not to say waiters don't feign interest or feign happiness. Yes, many people in the service industry are required to "perform" or express certain attitudes. This can be emotionally draining. Small talk is not this; small talk is genuine and it does not express interest or emotion. "Feigned" small talk doesn't make sense logically.

If you think it is creepy then you are applying standards from another culture to our own. You have every right to make these judgments but I don't see a case here for the supremacy of one single culture's interpretation of small talk.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#166

Post by SilasX »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #160
SilasX wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am 36yo American, lived here all my life. It still feels dissonant not to give a substantive answer to "how are you".

I have a big problem with this as well. Once, while studying in Shanghai, an (Italian) classmate asked me and, seeing my usual struggle to respond, remarked "this question is always so difficult for you".

I had a co-worker who got a real kick out of asking me a similar question and seeing me struggle.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#167

Post by wolfgke »

Isamu wrote: post #124
illuminati1911 wrote: post #7

(I’m a Finn) I didn’t know what small talk was until I went to study abroad. Most of my foreign classmates often asked me things like ”how are you doing?” etc. and when I literally answered them what I had been up to recently they were very confused. ”Dude...no need to tell your life story, just say ’good’ and that’s it” I replied ”Why do you ask a question if you don’t care about the answer?” I learned the hard way,…

As an American, I had to learn the same thing. Only as a young kid, but I specifically remember this experience. I think most people forget this, that you have to learn that a lot of conversation is not literal, it is opaque code for something else. I am still a pretty literal conversationalist but I can translate fluently. A friend had a great anecdote about his first meal with his girlfriend's family. The father as…

Story time: At a party of math students, the following dialogue happened between classmates (names changed):

Alice: "Do you know whether Carol will come to the party?"

Bob: "She will come, but somewhat later. I think she will be there in half an hour."

Alice: "I am not interested in whether she will come or not. If I wanted to know that information, I would simply have asked you whether she will come and if you did not know, you would simply have answered 'I don't know'. But this is not the question that I asked. I just wanted to know whether you have the knowledge whether she will come or not and that is why i formulated the question exactly this way and not differently."

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#168

Post by andyroid »

klodolph wrote: post #165
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that smalltalk is "feigned" doesn't make sense to me Ever talk to an American waiter about this? Often they will complain about their customers and how much they hate them, but they still have to be smiley and make small talk because 1) they feel they won’t get tips without it, and 2) their bosses insist on it.

I've been living in the US for almost all of my life, various regions, and I still don't see how small talk is "feigned". (I am curious what your social background is, and what your experience is with US culture.) The construction does not even make sense to me, and the phrase seems logically impossible to me, so my guess is that we are using different definitions for "feigned" or "small talk" or some other term. "To…

If your interest in my well being does not include listening to me talking about my illness for the next twenty minutes, your interest is feigned. This is what it’s all about in countries that don’t bother much with small talk, and your example with asking about someone owning a pen (while interesting in other aspects) isn’t really a serviceable metaphor to that.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#169

Post by matthewmacleod »

nyc111 wrote: post #96
fi358 wrote: post #52

Sometimes in Finland you see people from countries like USA talking with each other endlessly and often quite loudly. Many of us Finns find it annoying as it is against local customs (it resembles situation where somebody comes too close to my personal space). This constant chit-chat prevents me concentrating on my own thoughts. I wouldn't mind if they would talk about some important things or keep their chit-chat sh…

It looks like I would love to live in Finland! I'm always annoyed by passengers in the bus talking loudly while I try to read my book. This is very common. Commuters are very noisy in Turkey. Also I wonder if in Finland they announce stations in public transportation. Like "next station is blah blah..." Here in Turkey in big cities they even announce stations in Turkish and in English! So annoying.

Announcements are super important for people with visual difficulties, though.

I agree that there can often be far too much noise in public spaces, but that’s probably the wrong target to pick!

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#170

Post by klodolph »

andyroid wrote: post #168
klodolph wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been living in the US for almost all of my life, various regions, and I still don't see how small talk is "feigned". (I am curious what your social background is, and what your experience is with US culture.) The construction does not even make sense to me, and the phrase seems logically impossible to me, so my guess is that we are using different definitions for "feigned" or "small talk" or some other term. "To…

If your interest in my well being does not include listening to me talking about my illness for the next twenty minutes, your interest is feigned. This is what it’s all about in countries that don’t bother much with small talk, and your example with asking about someone owning a pen (while interesting in other aspects) isn’t really a serviceable metaphor to that.

There's no feigned interest, if you think I have expressed interested in you talking about your illness for the next twenty minutes then you have literally misunderstood what I said. I can sympathize with people who find this confusing—the meaning of the question “How are you doing today?” cannot be deduced from structure. I have known people who are native English speakers who grew up in the US and find this deduction difficult—they have to ask for clarification. I have an autistic friend who does this regularly, but she does not accuse people of being insincere.

The example of a pen is not a metaphor. It is another example of the underlying linguistic phenomenon (pragmatics) in action. Just like the meaning of “Do you have a pen?” cannot be deduced from its structure, the meaning of “How are you doing today?” cannot be deduced from its structure. You are required to use context in both cases, and for the same reason. I am not sure why you are calling it a metaphor, since I literally described it as "another example of pragmatics". It is not a similar phenomenon, it is literally the same phenomenon in action.

If you wish to learn more about pragmatics, there are many resources on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics

If you interpret small talk as "feigned interest", then you are in error.

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