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Brain Drain Within the EU?

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Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#161

Post by dmos62 »

barry-cotter wrote: post #86
dmos62 wrote: post #29

I like how this gives evidence to some kind of latin-germanic divide of the south-western Europe, or what we usually just call Western Europe. Apologies in advance for superficial labeling.

Either don’t apologise or don’t do it.

I apologise, because while I hold it accurate, hence I use it, the labeling is superficial. "He's this, he's that" is not something you enjoy throwing around.

You either think there's nothing to apologise for, in which case you're just criticizing my manner of conversation, or you think the labeling is inaccurate or demeaning, in which case you fail to demonstrate how. In either case, brevity and directness of your criticism don't mix well.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#162

Post by _delirium »

sverige wrote: post #132
jayalpha wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Contrary to what most people believe, I see that native English speakers can learn German rather easily" I doubt that. While English is part of the West Germanic languages, there are huge grammatical differences. I assume it would be much easier for a Polish or Russian Person to learn German than for an English. The sentence "Man bites Dog" and "Dog bites Man" has a different meaning in English, due to to position o…

As a native English speaker who studied German, Russian, and Polish, German was much easier to learn than the Slavic languages. The case system is smaller than Russian or Polish, and there are far more cognates which makes learning vocabulary much easier. Also, articles (e.g., "a" and "the") are notoriously difficult for non-native speakers of English, but German is similar enough. Learning cases is a little hard, an…

I guess some of this is also, to what level do you need to learn German? Some of the parts of German grammar that are difficult for English speakers can be mostly avoided by just phrasing things differently. Basic use of cases is necessary, but some of the rules around compound sentences can be skipped at first by just using simpler sentences. If what you're after is a reasonable conversational/email level of German, that's enough for many things, and you can always learn more constructs later. If you want to be a professor in the humanities and need to write/speak a formal academic level of German, that's different, but that's probably not the common case for HN readers.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#164

Post by overkalix »

The data is very, very weak. I think that most scientists and engineers from Spain, Italy and Greece have similar experiences to mine, though. I got my degree and masters in one of the above. I left to work in northern Europe. I came back home because I got a PhD grant. The chances of obtaining a stable job as researcher or teacher are not great. Doesn't take a lot of imagination to guess what my move will be once I am a doctor.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#165

Post by badpun »

renjimen wrote: post #137
kabes wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite the opposite, the current firm I work at in Belgium (Barco) is able to attract quite a lot of engineers from other EU countries, who obviously don't come to Belgium for taxation benefits. I think higher salary is the single most important factor.

Tax in Denmark is also very high (I keep ~50% of my salary) but there are a huge influx of graduates from around Europe because there are plenty of jobs, it's a very fair society, it's so comfortable to live here, English is widely spoken, and if you stick it out long enough to have kids you'll reap some of your taxed kroner back! Salary is important, but there are many other factors (at least, among my non-Danish fr…

In Denmark, there's a special tax bracket for expats, where you pay only about 33% of your salary (instead of the standard 50+%), I think you're eglibigle to use it for up to five years.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#166

Post by badpun »

KSteffensen wrote: post #131
petre wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denmark has crazy high taxes. I know several cases of people moving to Switzerland and other EU countries to escape the tax burden.

Tax rate is somewhere between 40% and 60% depending on your income and spending patterns, but consider that we also have free education up to and including PH.D level and free healthcare. Of course, everyone has their own take on whether that's good or bad. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pSFfTG42Jl8

Poland has a flat tax rate of ~19% (if you run a business or are self-employed - a lot of developers are self-employed here) and it also has free health care and universities, up to PhD level... You don't have to pay 60% taxes to get these.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#167

Post by oneplane »

expathacker wrote: post #146
woodpanel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(fictional, simplified) Example for a Software Engineer based in Germany [1]: Gross income: 100.000 EUR / year [2] ------------------------- TAXES - Income tax (28.600 EUR) - "solidarity premium" (2.300 EUR) - church tax (1.600 € - cumpolsory until you leave the curch) SOCIAL SECURITY (compulsory) - unemployed insurance (1.200 EUR) - pension insurance (7.300 EUR) - health insurance (4.500 EUR) - long term care (800 E…

Tangenitally, I'm curious about the unemployment insurance. What does it cover? In the United States, unemployment insurance is compulsory for employers, but it only covers two specific cases: laid-off due to inability to pay salary, laid-off due to your skills no longer being required. Quitting / being fired / getting sick puts you out on the street. Is it the same in Europe?

For most western European countries, there are almost no case in which you end up 'on the street'.

Most countries have a system in which this is prevented in a tiered system (like the German example) where there is the utter bottom layer where you get just enough money to fulfil primary needs (health, roof, bed, food, power, water etc). This status often also means you get other things as well, like free education for people that really cannot afford anything. This basic needs for existence tier is no fun to live in as far as I've seen/heard, and is a pretty good motivator to get out of as soon as possible.

As far as I know, this is also why you don't see the same tent camps underneath overpasses you see in the US; unless you completely remove yourself from society (by choice or by mental status), there is no need for it.

Then, on top of that base layer, which is not something you usually get to, there are the layers that deal with cases where injury causes you to not be able to work, as well as simply losing a job (which is usually because your contract expired, the company no longer exists, or you did something yourself -- not the case where the employer simply said "we don't want you" -- they can't , not with a permanent contract). This layer gets you anywhere between 50% and 80% of your last salary in most countries.

Keep in mind, that with most of those constructions, a lot of systems are in place that prevent you from going that low, or staying that low, on the income/self-sufficiency ladder. This is because it was mostly modeled on the concept that enabling people to live is cheaper than having a bunch of people on the street, as well as simple compassion and empathy. A lot of it comes from historical concepts, but it seems to grow in the same direction.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#168

Post by oneplane »

expertentipp wrote: post #145
woodpanel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(fictional, simplified) Example for a Software Engineer based in Germany [1]: Gross income: 100.000 EUR / year [2] ------------------------- TAXES - Income tax (28.600 EUR) - "solidarity premium" (2.300 EUR) - church tax (1.600 € - cumpolsory until you leave the curch) SOCIAL SECURITY (compulsory) - unemployed insurance (1.200 EUR) - pension insurance (7.300 EUR) - health insurance (4.500 EUR) - long term care (800 E…

In most Central European countries the total salary cost/net salary easily approaches or even exceedes 200% for any software-related profession. Employment contract is a racket contribution-wise and what’s worse, there is no better option (please don’t suggest contracting or freelancing).

Same here (western Europe) but aside from a little complaining, nobody really wants it gone as it has too many benefits for everyone as whole. And as long as you 'know' the true cost of having an employee you can take that into account which makes it more of a math problem and less of a money problem.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#169

Post by oneplane »

petre wrote: post #107
ericd wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the outside, the bureaucracy certainly seems like a big part of the problem. I've idly thought about moving to one of those countries and starting a company there because they are so nice . But one of the big things that kills those ideas are the horror stories about the horrible bureacracy, with non-deterministic results despite the same inputs. Starting a business is hard enough without spending time dealing w…

The root of this problem is bureaucracy + nepotism/cronyism combined, as opposed to bureaucracy alone.

But that seems to be limited/worse/more when you get 'halfway' through France on the map, it's more abundant when you get in the mediterranean areas. Not sure why, but it's an observation; it's almost as if the concept of work replaced the actual merit of work.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#170

Post by wsc981 »

gaius wrote: post #109
arximboldi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. People generally don’t mind paying a premium in time or money if they feel what they get it worth it. Everyone knows this is true, witness people happily stand in line for hours to buy an expensive but desirable item or experience. In Germany and Sweden and a few other countries taxes are high but you can look around you and see that it goes on high quali…

Netherlands would be one of those countries that has high taxation and indeed has good infrastructure and still decent public services (though it's been getting worse). Still I decided I wanted to leave the country for many reasons, but in part because I feel I pay too much for what I receive.

Now I live in Thailand with my girlfriend and while infrastructure is much worse and public services are of (much) lower quality than The Netherlands, yet here I will be able to make much more savings due to low (in my case pretty much non-existent except VAT) taxation.

I think it's better for us to raise our daughter here because we'll be able to give her an easier life where she will not have to work very hard and can enjoy her life. I think it's easy to save at least 35k a year here (if not more) where in The Netherlands, due to high taxation and high cost of living I should be happy to save maybe 15k.

I also think in the near future we'd have some property coupled with some other investments that will allow me to "retire" by 45 if not earlier. In The Netherlands I don't believe this would be possible either. I am 36 years old now by the way.

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