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Has an uncomfortable truth been suppressed?

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Re: Has an uncomfortable truth been suppressed?

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If quality had been the only argument, I'd buy it Look, I understand the political argument you are making, but politics has no place in peer reviewed scientific and mathematics journals. Quality is always the argument, or should be. If people want to have a political argument, take it elsewhere. There are a lot of people out there doing serious work who are relying on the reliability of the information presented in…

> If people want to have a political argument, take it elsewhere For example the Intelligencer? So why did folks cause a ruckus to prevent that? Not having a political argument in a journal also means having freedom from politics. That was denied to both the Intelligencer (by outside parties) and NYJM (arguably by both outside parties and the editor who rushed in that paper). > It's particularly galling that the poli…

Dude. I'm a mathematician. I write papers with reasonable mathematics. Sometimes I write snarky comments here or in blog posts. Neither just gets to be published in the Intelligencer because I want. The Intelligencer is not a public square. It's a paper publication that gets to pick what it wants to print.

Publish it freely on the ArXiV or whatever, but this argument that some publication has to publish because "politics" or "freedom" or whatever... why don't I get to throw a tantrum & get them to publish my stuff (which is actually math!) so I can get a raise? I need a raise.

Admittedly, I'd aim for Advances instead of the Intelligencer!

Re: Has an uncomfortable truth been suppressed?

#162
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for going trough the issue for us. Something about the hypothesis itself: The variability hypothesis seems plausible, but there seems to be little evidence linking it to biological differences. Variability differences undoubtedly exist, but not universally and not with same degree across cultures. As the measured variance is very culture dependent and even disappears, existing data does not support the hypothe…

I would be very cautious citing that paper. They draw some very strong conclusions based on unsupported assumptions and evidence of dubious significance from populations with unusual cultural features. > Therefore, we conclude that both variance and [variance ratio] in mathematics performance vary greatly among countries. Confirming our earlier finding ([21]), we also conclude that [variance ratio] is reproducibly es…

What's so unusual about Muslim countries? or countries with high inequity? They seem to collectively have a pretty big share of human population. Don't fall into the WEIRD trap (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic).

Re: Has an uncomfortable truth been suppressed?

#163
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theodore Hill (the paper's author) wrote about his side on https://quillette.com/2018/09/07/academic-activists-send-a-p... Somewhere in the middle he linked to the paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.04184.pdf From there you can get to its abstract page that also carries the versions: https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.04184

Thank you! So I went through more than half of abstract versions and the article itself, struggle to find anything scandalous there. I persuade everyone to do the same.

The news is that it's not the paper per se that's scandalous. It's the bypassing of the editorial board -- someone trying to get his buddy's stuff published without going through the usual channels.

Re: Has an uncomfortable truth been suppressed?

#164
post #11

> the idea that some huge percentage of males are simply not desirable enough (as we shall see, the paper requires this percentage to be over 50) to have a chance of reproducing bears no relation to the world as we know it In early humans only the top 16% of males mated Most people mate now, due to religious/society-enforced monogamy https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2833377/

> Most people mate now, due to religious/society-enforced monogamy

Most men. Most women have always mated.

Re: Has an uncomfortable truth been suppressed?

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! My troll-sense was tingling when reading the original article, so I was skeptic about the content claims of the original article. But the author had a good point: the NYJM screwed up by not publishing a retraction. A retraction would have made clear what the problem with the paper was. Sure, publicly saying "we made a mistake" sucks, but not doing so empowers the author of the paper to claim they are being p…

"...A retraction would have made clear what the problem with the paper was. Sure, publicly saying "we made a mistake" sucks, but not doing so empowers the author of the paper to claim they are being persecuted for their beliefs..." Or simply imagine so, given a lack of information. I'm still trying to sort this out. So this entire thing boils down to "Not-so-good pop-math piece is hated by some. It is first accepted…

I think part of the problem is that mathematicians are just surprised something like this was published in the NYJM in the first place. It's like publishing a sci-fi short story in a literary poetry journal -- a genre mismatch to begin with. It's not usual in math for a journal like NYJM to publish a "we propose a model for a bio problem & look it gives this kind of result". That's not a math paper. There's no theorem. How does it advance our understanding of the underlying structures of mathematics?

Papers like that are far more often published in applied math (look, we can apply this math to that problem) or computer science (look, we can apply this ML algorithm fruitfully to this type of data, for instance). I have sympathy in trying to find journal homes for these types of papers, because I'm looking for journal homes right now for some very interdisciplinary papers (applications of topology or algebraic geometry to finance). Often it seems you have to have really amazing results so you can publish in a general-interest science journal, because the math journals are so specialized they won't consider something like my papers or this paper.

You don't have to accept anyone else's judgement on the quality of the paper, although Tim Gowers is a guy who knows his math. A cheap shot here is to search for the word "theorem" in the provided arXiv text. Doesn't appear. Ok, the authors are so modest that they only prove propositions, not theorems -- but that is a sign it's not a real math paper! Then look at the propositions themselves. Prop 7.1, the first of a grand total of three propositions in the paper (no lemmas): a particular normal distribution is more variable than another if the... variance of the first is bigger. Wow. Sure, the authors say "the following simple proposition may be well known" but dang, this is not groundbreaking. This is barely mathematics.

Try following through the proofs of the three propositions. It really is at an undergrad level -- I'd be happy assigning some of these 'propositions' as homework exercises in the class I'm teaching now except we have more useful material to cover. There are also some problems the authors should have addressed regarding the subpopulation assumptions, etc. A good article of this type would have done additional modeling to address that. If I were reviewing it, I'd like to see a breakdown say of the different results given initial values of parameters (I'm a total sucker for wall-crossing or regime-change-type results -- like, cross this wall in the space of parameters and the behavior of the model will change in this way. Think phase planes in differential equations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_plane or regime-change results in economics). A dynamical systems analysis would be cool, but I'm biased like that. Analysis of robustness or sensitivity would be nice. I'd want to see comparison with other models, or applications of these models to other topics. The author could have replaced the non-math appendix full of useless crap with this material.

It's really important to be able to argue that your model isn't just a one-trick pony if you want to call it math -- you need to show it's a useful model with interesting mathematical properties that you can elucidate in the paper. This paper doesn't do that.

Re: Has an uncomfortable truth been suppressed?

#166
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If people want to have a political argument, take it elsewhere For example the Intelligencer? So why did folks cause a ruckus to prevent that? Not having a political argument in a journal also means having freedom from politics. That was denied to both the Intelligencer (by outside parties) and NYJM (arguably by both outside parties and the editor who rushed in that paper). > It's particularly galling that the poli…

Dude. I'm a mathematician. I write papers with reasonable mathematics. Sometimes I write snarky comments here or in blog posts. Neither just gets to be published in the Intelligencer because I want. The Intelligencer is not a public square. It's a paper publication that gets to pick what it wants to print. Publish it freely on the ArXiV or whatever, but this argument that some publication has to publish because "poli…

> It's a paper publication that gets to pick what it wants to print.

Apparently not?

Re: Has an uncomfortable truth been suppressed?

#167
post #33
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's all about the edges of distribution though. If equality of the means mattered, countries across the world would be very similar economically, which unfortunately is not the case.

It's ALL about the edges? What does that mean? What are the edges, and why does nothing else matter?

Because that is where people specialize. If we ranked all humans by their programming skill and see which ones choose to become programmers, you'll find it is all around the tip. The average programming skill of the average programmer is far greater than the average programming skill of the average person. This applies to innate talents as well. People go into careers based on what they are good enough at. If you are literally average or below average at your field (compared to all people, not just all people interested in your field), your chance of success is extremely low.

Therefore, if on some metric, you have two groups who are average but one with greater deviation, and then you select among the top 5% of the combined group, you will select more of the group with greater deviation even though the groups are average. You can test this with simulations if you want.

This isn't much of a problem until you apply it to everyday demographics, at which point it can result in uncomfortable conclusions.

Re: Has an uncomfortable truth been suppressed?

#168
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If people want to have a political argument, take it elsewhere For example the Intelligencer? So why did folks cause a ruckus to prevent that? Not having a political argument in a journal also means having freedom from politics. That was denied to both the Intelligencer (by outside parties) and NYJM (arguably by both outside parties and the editor who rushed in that paper). > It's particularly galling that the poli…

Dude. I'm a mathematician. I write papers with reasonable mathematics. Sometimes I write snarky comments here or in blog posts. Neither just gets to be published in the Intelligencer because I want. The Intelligencer is not a public square. It's a paper publication that gets to pick what it wants to print. Publish it freely on the ArXiV or whatever, but this argument that some publication has to publish because "poli…

[deleted]

Re: Has an uncomfortable truth been suppressed?

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At least the same stature" as the Intelligencer (which had agreed to publish it originally and retracted due to reasons that were not scientific concerns). A paper that is, as you noted, "not serious". I guess that doesn't apply to the NYJM, but I didn't ask for them to be the journal doing the publishing (just noted that their approach of dealing with the fallout of Rivin's machinations was unfortunate). If push ca…

I think I agree with you about the Intelligencer, at least to the extent that I don't think it matters what the Intelligencer does. But I disagree with you that a real journal has a duty to maintain a bad-faith off-topic out-of-process submission. That's a disservice to the cite record.

Not following process is a disservice to the cite record, correct. Citations rely heavily on the assumption that you can refer you reader to a range of pages in a journal and they will be able to unambiguously determine the paper you are referring to.

So completely removing a paper that was published in violation of process is a process violation itself, undermining the reliability of citations. At least they replaced it by a paper of the same length, hopefully preventing any following papers from moving around, but they really shouldn't reuse space like that. Especially considering it's an online journal where pages are essentially free.

Re: Has an uncomfortable truth been suppressed?

#170
"When applied to humans, this model is ludicrously implausible. While it is true that some males have trouble finding a mate, the idea that some huge percentage of males are simply not desirable enough (as we shall see, the paper requires this percentage to be over 50) to have a chance of reproducing bears no relation to the world as we know it."

It's not ludicrous at all. The world "as we know it" is not the world Homo Sapiens evolved in. There is some evidence of much harsher selection bias a few millennia ago:

https://psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success

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